It's not the time to pass it yet, not enough pockets have been filled to overflowing with the almighty green back.

I agree! Let those guys stand up. Let's see the creeps that are against government control and huge debt!

Great Comment.

This idea that the U. S. Senate now requires a majority of 60 votes to do anything is a perversion of democracy and the Constitution. Small states were given disproportionate representation by the 2 senators per state provision. To then require 60 votes is inapporpriate.

The filibuster is legitimate for rare, unusual and potential legislative disasters, but it is not appropriate as everyday policy, and it is time for the Dems to call the bluff.

"The filibuster is legitimate for rare, unusual and potential legislative disasters, but it is not appropriate as everyday policy, and it is time for the Dems to call the bluff."

If this isn't a potential legislative disaster, I don't know what is. We simply cannot afford to do this, especially right now, and it could very well be the downfall of the US. If you insist on supporting this, at least get the debt in check, wait for the economy to recover, then take another look at it when our financial picture looks better.

I simply can't understand why people seem to think we can spend money we don't have and can't afford.

I'm as suspicious of any body about where the current legislation will take us. But there is no reason that a clear minority in the Senate should be able to block it, or that the Democrats should cower in the face of a filibuster threat.

I simply can't understand why people seem to think we can spend money we don't have and can't afford.

That isn't what you said when the lies were flying about why we needed to invade Iraq. I love how the Republican Party is suddenly the defender of fiscal responsibility. Not when it comes to blood for oil!

Thanks Jack for your last post in response to a previous one, where the poster has suddenly become a fiscal conservative when it comes to doing something for the people....

Counting chickens before they're hatched makes good fodder for the news media.

Re: "I simply can't understand why people seem to think we can spend money we don't have and can't afford."

To imagine that the financial priorities of a superpower somehow mirror those of the individual household is pretty fatuous, and calling this fallacy "fiscal conservatism" is too generous. The collective needs and resources of an entire society can't possibly be made clear by scaling down metaphorically to the level of a family paying its debts and living within its means.

Jack, you're the best bar lecturer by a country mile, and I read your words here religiously, but I can't agree with you on this (and don't call me a Republican). Why in the name of all that is good would we take a system that -- by the president's own admission -- is a fraud-laden boondoggle where it is already in place (Medicare et al) and force it down the throats of everyone else in the country? Oh, pardon me...down the throats of everyone else in the country EXCEPT those who are crafting and voting on this flawed piece of legislative crap?

Those who filibuster will indeed be in for brutal criticism from some, but that harsh light will make their good characters more evident to me, not less.

This conservative, like most others, has as much a problem with the Military bureaucracy as any other that contributes to the downward spiral of our country.
Sure I want a strong military while people on far left want no standing army at all, but there are many Billions disappearing through the pentagon budget and that must stop.

The current pattern by the new administration is expected to increase our debt by $8 TRILLION over the next decade and our national unfunded liability is expected to be $100 TRILLION for this century.

This isn't any avoidance of any Bush year spending. It's what we face now.

So until our elected leaders from both sides of the despicable DC get a grip on Medicare, SS, the military and every other massive misappropriation any expansion is pure insanity.

Our only hope is to reduce the current behemoth goverment at all levels.

That means no Universal Health Care, no cap and trade, no amnesty and no pretending our current mess can be fixed later.
There is no later.

From Portland to the State to the Country the mess has arrived at only now to be fixed.

Playing fillibuster over some distracting
political battle makes my skin crawl.

Those who filibuster will indeed be in for brutal criticism from some, but that harsh light will make their good characters more evident to me, not less.

I'll send the bankrupt people whose personal finances were ruined because they got sick over to your house for a pep talk.

Amen!!! Jack
Let 'em talk and talk and talk about how sick people should die every 12 seconds and go bankrupt too!

Chris - Sounds like you're all for putting them into the spotlight, just like I am. Let's get on with it, then - we'll just see how they're treated.

By some of the thoughts on this board, we should stop supporting all establishments where fraud occurs...should we start with the insurance companies, banks and the brokerages?

And let's not rule out organized religion either, i.e., Baker, Swaggart, Haggard...

And how about the new religion, internet addiction? Seems likes there's lots of fraud perpetrated through the internet, so maybe we should do away with it too...

And what about those politicians and all their daliances that some claim are ridden with fraud and conflicts of interest, maybe we should do away with government too?

Well?

Thanks for at least calling out Joey Link and his kind for the hypocritical miscreants that they are. The truth is pretty much exactly the opposite of what they assert: if we don't reform our health care "system", and soon, it will sink the country. We're well on our way, and the only serious question is how much the current proposals do to fix the economic problems — a goal that these same sociopaths have aligned themselves stridently against.

This Health Care legislation will save our country?
and the only serious question is how much the current proposals do to fix the economic problems?

I've followed this issue all along and have missed completely any and all indications of this?

And I've tuned into Thom, big Eddie, Keith, Glenn and Bill for the whole picture.

Where did Allan L get that impression?

Ok then.

Let them filibuster

Amen.

$680,000,000,000 Defense appropriation bill signed by President and not a single GOP bitched. That doesn't even cover the cost of the Bush Wars I & II. Yet the idea of spending $90B helping Americans is some how so repulsive to the GOP.

Reading skills, Ben. Reading skills. What I said is that the health care system we now have will sink the country. Reform could save that. Are we getting reform? Not clear. Probably not enough.

You folks seem to be missing the point.

I think the issue is whether or not the U. S. Senate, which is hugely disproportionate to begin with should have a rule that requires 60 votes out of 100 to pass legislation.

The merits of the health care ligislation are another issue. But it should be pointed out that Obama ran on a platform of providing health care for everyone regardless of their financial situation and that on that basis he and the Democrats won a resounding victory.

To allow 40 Senators who represent probably 20-30% of the population to block this seems like a perversion of democracy, and so if that is what they want, let them truly filibuster for all the country to see, which is what I think Jack's original point was.

Come on folks.

This isn't just $90 billion to help needy Americans? Where do yo get this stuff?

It's a massive undertaking that relies upon:
1/2 Trillion in Medicare cuts yet to be identified or made,
$180 billion in fines which may not occur to fund it,
and new taxes without regard to the unintended consequences.

It doesn't adequatley limit help to the truly needy and legal residents, ignores the problems of law suit abuse, fails to allow more competiton across State lines and has absolutely no plan to work any better than previous plans in State'a like Hawaii where 85% of those enrolled had previous insurance leading to the program being halted.

And those are just my highlights.

Lefty Ed Schlutz et al has a whole other list of problems with it. .

That leaves this legislation the mammouth non remedy for a massive problem which most parts are ignored.
All for the feeling it will help Americans so full steam ahead?

Conservatives like me see that as extraordinarily reckless.

Is that what this country needs right now is recklessness?

The bills floating around are far from perfect, but they are better than nothing, which is what the righties really want. Sorry, but nothing isn't going to fly.

Come on we righties want much.
How many time must we say it?

We want the law suit abuse reigned in,
more competition across state lines,
the Medicare savings obtained FIRST,
the soaring deficit turned around,
illegal immigration reduced,
waste, fraud and abuse reduced (including at the Pentagon),
the long term fiscal calamity averted.
and a return to adequate focus on the core functions of goverment at all levels.

Claiming righties want nothing to make lefty proposals sound preferrable isn't very persuasive. Especially when so many lefties have problems with the lefty plans.

I'd say the country needs exactly what we need locally. More genuinely traditional approaches which too often are labeled conservative and dismissed.

Many of us locally agree on the need to reign in the current local regime's spending and policies.
Same should go for the country.

But round we go.

Sorry, not buying it. You guys sing this song only when you are out of power.

We sang the song all during the Bush and Republican legislature years.

Our not so conservtive President George, Congress and Oregon legislature got an earful of that song and you know it.

From the Bush spending to our own Republican legislature passing legislation such as $250 milion lottery dollars for Milwaukie light, among many others, got plenty of tht song.

The amnesty bill Bush and the Congress attempted was canned because of our singing that song you now say you never heard.

But now we're in extreme circumstances and both the State and country cannot afford to recklessly push forward with expansion without prudence and extreme caution.

Except for invasions.

We sang the song all during the Bush and Republican legislature years.

On which planet did this occur?

I'll send the bankrupt people whose personal finances were ruined because they got sick over to your house for a pep talk.

I dont see how thats going to change. From what I can tell, all this new bill does is force people to buy health coverage..and penalize them if they dont.
Whether they can afford it or not. Sure, it may give coverage to the poor, (at taxpayer expense, which is fine,) and it makes sure health care coverage is AVAILABLE to the rest of us...the middle class. But nothing has been said about AFFORDABLE. Front page of the O today said premiums in Oregon have gone up 140% in the last seven years.
wait till this passes...you ain't seen nuthin' yet.

Sorry, not buying it. You guys sing this song only when you are out of power.

Well, I said it. Its why I left the Republican party.

I called Sen. Wyden's Portland office about this the other day and got a very rude, condescending woman who hung up on me in mid-sentence. Do these people think they'll be in power forever, no matter how they treat their constituents? It's almost enough to make me reconsider term limits (please note I said "almost").

I agree that it's ridiculous to routinely allow the mere threat of a filibuster to stand in for the genuine article. But I understand why the Democrats are keen to avoid a real one. An actual filibuster brings to a screeching halt the ~entire~ legislative process, not just the one bill at issue. There are other things the Senate leaders want to (and should) accomplish before adjourning next month, such as another round of stimulus spending to create desperately needed jobs. Health care reform is important but it can wait a bit longer in my view.

I swear. No one can say what is in the Bill since no one knows, and even if one knows, and is correct, the Health Delivery Bill structure can be re-structured later, after passage, taking out what doesn't work, putting in what got forgotten. So, debating argument on its (de)merits is peanut gallery chatter, the roar of empty cannon.

Only two things matter: price and process.

Price can be re-structured later, after passage too. So price doesn't matter. Except to the health insurance leeches owning 'HMOs' and clinics where captive-market 'clients' co-pay monthly to have their lifeblood sucked out. Those price-profiteers (some are in the US Senate) scream loudly to preserve their own bloodsucking and high-paying victims.

That leaves process. A comment upthread asked, "why must we pass a quasi-comprehensive health Bill right NOW"? Answer: BeCAUSE. And the 'cause' here is NOT to bring people health, or general welfare, or less death -- if health and welfare and less death was 'cause' which the government celebrated, then war would have been taxed and outlawed long ago. This Bill does not 'cause' health.

The cause of this Bill is to push through the process of enacting legislation against the resistance of a regressive minority. A minority which has pulled out all its stops for over 80 years resisting the process of shared democratic empowerment. And y'know what? The only SHOVING DOWN THROATS going on is the Process -- SHOWING PeoplePower of this popular legislative movement.

That, and most people have hated the Harry and Louise LIARS TV in 1994, and have been seething ever since against the Limbaugh and Newt and Religionazis resisting women's equality, shrink-wrapping women hostage. That is, the '94 TV propaganda skipped health debate and only character-assassinated Hillary; beCAUSE the rightwing sociopath is about hating women and is clueless about statecraft.

So let 'em filibuster. Then the process of statecraft is going to be shoved down the minority's throats. BeCAUSE the Process of POWER is what 'MAJORITY' means. The democratic PROCESS is the 'cause' we celebrate and stand on the principle of.

A filibuster is going to be fun to watch which Democrats turn traitor and join Republicans against the Majority ... they all get stuck holding the 30 pieces of silver from their lobbyist 'sponsors' who, then, didn't get to keep their rich victims they paid for to bloodsuck ... so they might want their bloodmoney silver pieces back ... unless the Democratic and Republican traitors against America get out of town, fast, with the lobbyists chasing them ... fun to watch the chase scenes.

We sang the song all during the Bush and Republican legislature years.

Yes, but you sang it very softly. Next time a Republican President doubles the deficit (from say 5 Trillion to 10 Trillion), sing a little louder so the country can actually hear you.

The current guy is on line to add 3-4 trillion in his first year or two. When can we expect you to start singing?

Ben ... The Repubs were in almost complete control of all three branches of the government from 1/20/01 until January of 2007. Most of this time, the Dems were utterly disorganized and unable to mount an effective challenge to even the worst Republican ideas. The Repubs got anything they REALLY wanted passed, and they weren't afraid to use reconciliation to do it.

The fact that they didn't enact tort reform, selling of insurance across state lines, or any of their other "meaningful reforms" shows that either 1) they didn't really care enough to push it through; and/or 2) they didn't think there was any real problem with the current health care system. Thus, they were either being duplicitous or they had a tin political ear. In either event, they deserve to be ignored now.

Hey rural resident.
I was talking upthread bout what conservatives want.
Obviously conservatism was not in control while Republicans were.
The fiscal madness in soaring spending, NCLB, prescription drug entitlement and the attempted amnesty were not conservative.
There was plenty of complaining about these despite your revisions here.

So much that amnesty was killed by the conservative chorus.

There's nothing new about what conservatives and traditionalists want.

And today these are needed more desperately.

Your raising the Bush administration appears to be a means to ignore these objectives now.

Are any of willing to argue against these?

We want the law suit abuse reigned in,
more competition across state lines,
the Medicare savings obtained FIRST,
the soaring deficit turned around,
illegal immigration reduced,
waste, fraud and abuse reduced (including at the Pentagon),
the long term fiscal calamity averted.
and a return to adequate focus on the core functions of goverment at all levels.

Jack, I'm disappointed that you and others assume I'm for the wars, or even conservative, based on my comment above or any of my previous comments. It's easy to assume and attack, it's not easy to ask questions to better feel out a persons point of view. I'm a libertarian, as my above comment reflects. I don't support our current wars (though i'm not anti-war, if the cause is truly just). The fact is that we cannot ignore this debt and spending any longer, plain and simple. We need to cut spending across the board. I was saying the same exact thing when Bush was president.

1.Is there Tort Reform in this package?
2.Will the powers that be have the same coverage as all us taxpayers?
3.Will there be a level field for all or
will there still be inequities?
4. How will it be funded?

POLLS: Obama’s approval among independents down to … 34/51; Support for ObamaCare down to 40/52.

Message to Dems: That makes ObamaCare considerably less popular than Sarah Palin.