The NJ governor is smart and has much common sense. I was born and raised here... and I'm embarassed to live in Portland, and this state. What idiots we have elected and continue to support.

The available choices seem to be to ignore it or to move.

The bankruptcies will be interesting to watch, though.

Republican or no, that Christie is someone who not only gets where the nation is headed but he is willing to tell the electorate what they don't want to hear. He is unpopular with the unions but at least he is trying to get out in front of the problem.

We really need some of that out here in Oregon. Wheeler all but admitted we are broke and the former expenditures are unsustainable. No one wants to acknowledge what is coming down the pike. Hey Oregon, that is not a light at the end of the tunnel in is a freaking streetcar! Austerity now!

Chalk and cheese. The Hudson rail tunnel is badly needed. Borrowing for such a project is reasonable when interest rates are as low as they are (the Feds can borrow for basically nothing short term). A project of this scope would provide needed jobs for construction workers. It is short-sighted defeatism to defer this infrastructure investment. It bears no comparison to I'll-conceived and unjustified works projects here.

That's ill-conceived.

"The former United States Attorney has become a darling of the Republican party..."

My question is why the hell isn't he a "darling" of the Democratic party as well?

Jack there's one huge reason not to go back to the NE.... weather... I could never take winter again after 33.5 years here. The last time I was in NY state in the winter it nearly killed me (or seemed like it).

That's ill-conceived.

Your comment?

8c)

The NJ-NY commuting crowd know what they're up against, and they're doing fine, all things considered. The way this economy is going, even if we went to a Japanese 0% interest rate, there's a real question as to where the principal repayment is going to come from. Actually, there's no question: There's no money to pay this back with.

It's time for adults to take over government.

why the hell isn't he a "darling" of the Democratic party as well?

Because he is insisting on cutting back popular social welfare programs, and government employee benefits.

"I moved out west from New Jersey in 1975"

From which town, might I ask?

Bob Tiernan
Portland

I grew up in Newark, but the town I lived in just before I left was Kearny.

It's time for adults to take over government.

If we could just find some. Fifty-three countries, according to the Heritage Foundation, collect more in taxes (as a % of GDP) than the United States (including taxation at all levels). That includes all the rest of the industrialized world. Only Wyoming and Alaska have lower gasoline taxes than New Jersey. A recent study estimated the externalized cost (that is, the cost involuntarily borne by others) of a car driven into New York City at $160. To say that money cannot be found for needed infrastructure projects like mass transit in the New York region is simply pandering to the anti-tax crowd. With these people calling the shots, it's hard to be optimistic about the country's future.

Meanwhile, China now has 2,000 km of high-speed passenger rail, with another 17,000 km under construction, financed by an aggressive economic stimulus program. They're eating our lunch, and not only by selling us plastic crap.

Anyone who drives a car from New Jersey into New York City on a regular basis is out of his or her mind.

But the existing PATH train, Amtrak, and buses are perfectly adequate. This isn't the time to be building a new tunnel under the Hudson River.

Of course, hypocrisy isn't foreign to either party. After all, Christie did support this project when running for election. But now that he has to capture the GOP primary nomination for President, he pulls a Romney.

When two good liberals are in absolute disagreement, it's fun to follow their reasoning. Paul Krugman's Sunday column is withering in its condemnation of NJ Gov. Christie's decision. Of course, his perspective is somewhat broader than Portland.

For posterity's sake Jack, I think that's Gary Gildin (who hailed from my hometown of Morton Grove IL by the way, I went to grade school and high school with his sister Bonny) whose head is obscured by President Ford's noggin in the black and white pic.

Oh yeah, this is a political post. Sadly, there's nothing left for bridges and tunnels after favors have been parceled out to every special interest group known to modern man, and pension and benefit programs through all levels of government -- federal, state and local -- have gone un- or under-funded for decades.

Here is an alternative point of view from someone (Nobel Prize Winning Economist) who is not a politician.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/08/opinion/08krugman.html?ref=opinion

It is difficult to know the value of this project, but one thing that is certain is that all of those Conservatives who are so worried about burdening future generations with debt have no concern about burdening future generations with an inadequate education system, a huge bill to fix infratstucture and an environmental problem of immense proportions.

This isn't the time to be building a new tunnel under the Hudson River.

This is precisely the time for investments in infrastructure. One could argue the merits of the project or the skill with which it has been designed and it's cost estimated, but the only better time for such investments is in the past. We can afford such investments. What we can't afford is not making them.

"Chalk and cheese. The Hudson rail tunnel is badly needed."

Puh-leeze, Sam and company trot out the same refrain everytime they want to push one of their projects they can't justify quantifiably.

As far as infrastructure, yes, its needed, but the problem is these projects shoudl cost $1B, but by the time 20 agencies start tacking on earmarks, we are at 10x the original proposal.

If they want to fix what is out there already (cf. Sellwood bridge or sewers), great. But they always have these big, new and exciting projects that they say are desperately needed (like WES and the Tram and PGE Park) and the existing stuff rots even more.

Maybe if we start to push back they can sharpen their pencils?

I'll skip Krugman, but Allan L.
your supportive rhetoric is identical to that used by Metro councilors yesterday as they supported Milwaukie Light Rail.

They were rubber stamping JPACT raiding $27 million from future transportation flex funds needed for a lenthy list of regional projects that already never funded.

That on top of pilfering many other existing revenue streams to pay for this worst project in Oregon history.

From schools to police, fire and even TriMet's own operations no pool of money has been off base.

Likewise NJ would need to pilfer revenue from all sources to pay their obscene bill and pile up more costs in massive debt service.

Carlotta Collette said she is enamored about the Milwaukie Light Rail bridge over the Willamette.

"It will be the first ped/bike/transit bridge in the county"

There's a reason for that.

It an asinine waste of money.

Another councilor comment:

"This is even a big benefit to Washington County because it's a regional investment that builds a healthy transportation system".

Huh? It raids $70 million from bankrupt TriMet's own operations revenue further collapsing transit service.

It devours $200 million in regional transportation dollars needed for a healthy transportation system that they forget happens to include roads.

It will chew through $400 million lottery dollars and spend another $200 million it will raid from schools, cities and counties.

There is nothing healthy about a project with this kind of stench.

If it wreaks it's rotten.

The entire JPACT, every member, is hopelessly delusional, irresponsible and unethical.

Ben, I'm not talking about the Milwaukie Light Rail boondoggle. I don't disagree with you about that.

Yeah I got what you were talking about.

Did you not understand my point at all?

Your case for supporting the NJ project is the same at the case for Milwaukie Light Rail.

Among the rest of their nonsense MLR supporters also claim it will create 14,000 jobs. They repeated that yesterday at Metro.

Now why do you think your case for NJ is any more rational that the case here for MLR?

The trouble in both cases is the ease at which proponents can compltely disregard the negatives simply by tossing out a few bromides.

New Jersey cannot afford everything people can imagine and neither can we. Gov. Christie is actually wise and courageous, not just "smart" like Adams et al.

Allan L,
You believe that our infrastructure needs investment but why does it have to be a bold new "Big Dig"-style project? Why not shore up what we've got? Do you realize how many problem bridges there are in America? These are vital, too.
So why not fix them? Because it's not sexy. We have the bold-visionary thing working against us here. These men - and they are mostly men - want to sit back and brag that they were the ones who built the mighty tunnel to the mighty city. The fact that it costs so many billions is a positive for them - it's a way to show just how great they were. These projects are ego trips.
Chris Christie is a rare politician. He appears to be genuine. He's seen Bruce Springsteen in concert over 122 times. He's funny and he can kid about the Sopranos and Jersey Shore, then shift into stuff like this.
This is the type of Republican who could save the GOP from the morons.

...I was leaving an insane place and heading out to a locale in which people were much more reasonable.

Nowadays, I think we've reversed roles.

Ummm, have you seen "Jersey Shore"?

As Governor Christie likes pointing out, the cast is not all from Jersey. Some of the worst are from Long Island.
I saw Christie talking about an official in the New Jersey school system who failed to file an application for a big federal program in a timely manner. Christie found that screw-up to be unacceptable - especially since the official tried to BS his way out of it. Christie fired him.
I thought that was refreshing.

Bojack's no Keynesian.

Like Jack, half of Oregonians aren't originally from Oregon, either. I'm not sure what the point about "Jersey Shore" is. Is there some sort of pure Jersey bloodline? I mean, apart from bovines?

What about "Real Housewives of New Jersey"? Next you'll be telling me they aren't real. :)

Christie can't disown everyone from every Jersey-themed TV show. I bet he didn't diss "The Sopranos". He does make an appearance (presumably about his time as AG) in a documentary "The Soprano State" due out this month.

But the existing PATH train, Amtrak, and buses are perfectly adequate. This isn't the time to be building a new tunnel under the Hudson River.

Even if it's true that the current system is perfectly adequate (and it was crowded when I took the PATH trains daily about 15 years ago, so I have to imagine it's worse now), it won't be adequate forever. One of government's primary jobs is to keep the flow of private sector commerce -- freight and people -- moving, and this decision threatens that.

Unlike the national debt -- much of which goes to fund current operations -- the reason you borrow for large capital projects is precisely to burden future generations with the cost. You spread the costs to the people who are going to benefit. Building the tunnel today isn't going to help current commuters all that much. But it will help the economy and industry of the NY/NJ region for the next 100 years.

The only reason not to build this tunnel today is if you don't believe it will be needed anytime in the next 20 years. Even Christie hasn't made that claim.

After all, Christie did support this project when running for election.

Perhaps he did but it was under an assumption that the costs would remain on budget. He didn't make some pledge to go deeper into debt over it.

Maybe it will be built someday. The trade unions have had their bluff called here (hopefully a trend nationwide). We need to re-examine federal (and state) Davis-Bacon laws. It doesn't make any sense to overpay government contractors based on some union derived formula that perverts the competitive bidding process - these contractors should be happy to have work at all in an era of 10% unemployment.

Did you not understand my point at all?

Apparently not — if there is one, it is buried in all the irrelevant local stuff.

Chris Christie is a rare politician. He appears to be genuine.

He looks pretty much like all the rest of the anti-government, anti-tax Republican nut jobs. Put people like him — or Chris Dudley, for that matter — in office and you can expect to get pretty much what we got with George W. Bush.

Another reason not to build this tunnel now: They can't afford it.

Miles,

That fatally flawed rationale ignores at least half of the spread sheet. Borrowing requires payments along with added debt service costs which have to come from somewhere other than under the pillows of taxpayers.

The best reason not to build this tunnel today is there are no tooth fairies. The money to pay back the borrowed cost would drain the coffers of many other needs and services.

As is the case with Trimet and many other services around here.

How is it that you cling to and embellish such a small part of the interests to a point that it obscures and outweighs all else?

It is also quite plausible that this $8-10 Billion project will result in quite the opposite of your confidence in helping the "flow of private sector commerce -- freight and people" by devouring the resources for many other associated improvements and other needs that effect the same concern. Commerce, freight, and people have many things which $10 billion would otherwise provide.

The blind presumption that this use of the $10 billion over other uses will provide a net benefit is the same kind of reckless abandon TriMet uses as it raids every coffer in sight.

But they have not applied any assessment of merit to this widespread taking and misappropriation. There is no regard for hole left by the taking at all.

Remarkably for many years they have not even considered the effect on TriMet itself. The agency is collapsing and they are whistling into it;s own graveyard.

Yet the pretense is that they have studied the impacts of diverting these millions and determined this (MLR) is the best use of those proceeds.

They figured out that taking school money etc to build light rail is a good idea.

Not really they just take the money from schools without the slightest sense of fiduciary responsibility at all.

Gary,
Another reason not to build the light rail now: They can't afford it.

Ben,
Thank you for your report on yesterday's meeting.
At some point, we can no longer go on as usual.
Officials are using the same talking points, no matter what the reality.
On the Milwaukie Light Rail,
it is so obvious that it shouldn't be built and more obvious that there is no money for it, which is why the financial gymnastics and the official's verbal gymnastics.
They are determined to get money for this project, wouldn’t be surprised to have them go to schools and PR/market the children to raid their piggy banks to help our community and for their "wonderful" future!

Allan L., it is heart warming to read your "precisely the time for investment in infrastructure". I'm glad you strongly support the 12 lane Columbia River Crossing, or even the 10 lane. We must think of the future, right?

Same goes to Miles's, "even though current system is perfectly adequate", you state we need to build now for the future.

Glad you are both on board in the CRC. In fact, your premises means we should be building 14 lanes, and that we should increase the freeway to 4 lanes each way down in the Rose Garden I-5 bottleneck. I agree.

Ben -- You're making the case that the NJ/NY tunnel isn't needed. You're one of the few making that claim. Even Christie suggested that New Jersey's Senators go back and find some federal funding for a less expensive tunnel project, presumably because such a tunnel is necessary. But his argument is disingenuous -- if he wanted to reduce the costs of the project, he had lots of tools short of blowing it up.

As I noted above, the only reason not to do the project is if it's not necessary for the next 20 years. Once you conclude that it is, now is the BEST time to do the project. To delay a long-term benefit because of a current day recession, or to argue that capital debt is an illegitimate way to finance such a project, shows very short-term, destructive thinking.

Of course the debt payments take away from other services or require a tax increase. That point is so obvious, I didn't realize it had to be restated. And if there are better infrastructure uses for this money, great -- but that's not the point that Christie made. He said the state cannot afford the project, indicating that he is against long-term infrastructure spending of this sort, whether for this project or another. Christie is just continuing the long-running underinvestment in our nation's infrastructure.

Thanks for putting words in my mouth. The CRC project makes sense only in the Keynsian view that it would make sense to hire people to dig holes, bury money in them and then hire other people to dig it up. That creates jobs, but wastes money. The new CRC would do nothing to help the traffic problems of I-5 through Vancouver and Portland. A new railroad bridge would be much more useful if it allowed for high-speed passenger rail.

I choose number 3...to stay and fight for the common sense approach.

Miles: . . To delay a long-term benefit because of a current day recession, or to argue that capital debt is an illegitimate way to finance such a project, shows very short-term, destructive thinking. .

I believe that we have more than a current day recession going on here! There is global financial chaos and chaos generally around. If this is so needed, how about hitting up the Wall Street crowd to pay some for a tunnel? Years ago, the WPA provided jobs in dire economic times, this time, it looks like the money was given for bailouts instead.

These kind of projects now are taking money from essentials. Is that right? Education taking a nose-dive? Long term investment in good education, health for the citizenry, all of these human concerns should not be on a little shelf somewhere at this point for a huge project. If and only if we can dig ourselves out of this "recession" can we go back to the kind pattern that you talk about in the past building for future generations.

We are in rather different times now. Many people think we can just continue on as before and the pendulum will swing back. Others think there is no going back, so things are up in the air, as uncomfortable as that may seem.
We need to pay attention to what may be profound changes.

It may come down to we can have all the new bridges and tunnels but at the expense of all else, people can be hurting in many ways, but hey, look at that grand bridge!

Let us not forget the Military Industrial Complex budget plays a role here too, as it leaves us to argue then, about what is left and what to spend it on.

"He said the state cannot afford the project, indicating that he is against long-term infrastructure spending of this sort, whether or this project or another"

Quite a stretch in logic.

"He had lots of tools short of blowing it up."

Really? Isn't Christie just doing what needs to be done to get his message through the Kevlar skulls of the construction company execs and the unions, ie, "adapt to current economic realities, or we'll sideline you altogether"?

Very similar to his move to cut pension benefits to government employees. The lawsuits are piling up there, and the final outcome is uncertain, but the move was a high-profile way of recalibrating the conversation about who gets what in American society.

Christie has a sure communication touch and is a people person with an accountant's brain. I'd vote for him for President in 2012 in a heartbeat. I just hope his heart will keep beating, considering that he looks like one of those high-IQ stress-response eaters and probably has a blocked artery or two...I hope someone tells him about that cool new Czeck adjustable intragastric balloon that requires no surgical incisions and can be placed in 10 minutes under sedation, and is good for 50-75 lbs fairly effortless weight loss....

As I noted above, the only reason not to do the [NJ tunnel] project is if it's not necessary for the next 20 years.

I can think of a few more reasons:

1) You have limited resources (check)
2) You have higher priorities (check)
3) You could re-start it in 5 or 10 years (check)
4) The price may come down in the meantime (likely)

I should also point out that forecasting whether something is "not necessary for the next 20 years" requires accepting a lot of assumptions (many of which are value laden by urban planning elites) about things that may well change.

Maybe Christie is just driving a hard bargain. If so, more power to him.

Whatever the case, I think NJ residents are better off with someone like Christie making tough decisions and explaining them frankly. We don't have anyone of his caliber running for office in Oregon (I liked Allen Alley in the primary but he was still a far cry from Christie).

Dudley is weak tea compared to Christie but he still shows more promise than Kitz when it comes to spending problems. We have to start somewhere - if Dudley doesn't grow into the role then I expect he'll be replaced in 2014 (by a primary challenger).

And one thing you can say about Gov. Christie Jack, He's not a witch!!!
A portly gent he is, I shook his hand a few weeks back at the Court House Diner, but still "Not A Witch"!

I saw Christie talking about an official in the New Jersey school system who failed to file an application for a big federal program in a timely manner. Christie found that screw-up to be unacceptable - especially since the official tried to BS his way out of it. Christie fired him.
I thought that was refreshing.

Bill, that official was Bret Schundler, Christie's own choice as education commissioner and a former Republican gubernatorial candidate. He was fired because he'd told Christie New Jersey hadn't won "Race to the Top" funding from the feds because of excessive red tape requirements, something that was disproved by videotape taken during a meeting between the Dept. of Education and NJ officials after Christie had publicly assumed responsibility for the failure.

So the guy Christie picked as the head of his schools program lied to his face and got fired for it. Christie should probably get kudos for taking the rap initially, but firing the guy he'd hired because he'd lied to him about losing the state millions of federal dollars? Not so much.

Darrell,

What that shows me is that Christie isn't afraid to chop off some heads, even if they belong to those in his "inner circle." Anybody can fire a political enemy, but it takes some moxie to fire someone you yourself appointed.

Allan L. "A new railroad bridge would be much more useful if it allowed for high-speed passenger rail"

Q: How many 40 foot containers of freight will that high-speed passenger rail carry"

A: none.

Then we ought to get rid of the only remaining drawbridge on Interstate 5.

Just read this:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101008/ap_on_re_us/us_trans_hudson_tunnel

By ANGELA DELLI SANTI, Associated Press Writer Angela Delli Santi, Associated Press Writer – 25 mins ago

TRENTON, N.J. – Under pressure from the Obama administration, Republican Gov. Chris Christie agreed Friday to rethink his decision to cancel construction of a $9 billion rail tunnel connecting New Jersey and New York City. . .

I also think that Christie's willingness to whack one of his own appointees/allies who didn't get the job done (and then lied about it) sends a message to the rest of his department heads. Not quite like Robert DeNiro as Al Capone in The Untouchables, but I'm sure the rest of his team now understands what happens if you fail AND lie to Governor Christie...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8I0i7lcZnY

we ought to get rid of the only remaining drawbridge on Interstate 5

I'm inclined to agree, Mr. Tee, but I think that the ferry service replacing it might be a little slow . . . .

Like I said, I think Christie should get credit for taking the blame upfront when he thought his people had done their best to meet the fed's requirements. He did take the opportunity to whine quite a bit about that damn Washington bureaucracy making it difficult for the state to meet their requirements.

That whining, though, was what led to the release of the tape that showed him he'd been lied to and I really can't imagine too many people putting up with an appointee who'd publicly made them look like they didn't know what was going on.

Firing someone for blatantly not performing their job? Isn't that sort of a low bar for praise? Was he fired for not getting the funds or for making Christie look bad? If he hadn't lied to Christie about it and Christie hadn't gone on TV to complain about all the red tape keeping NJ from getting their federal money, Schundler might still be employed.

I believe that we have more than a current day recession going on here! There is global financial chaos and chaos generally around.

Certainly possible, but unlikely in my view. It's human nature to view the time you are living in as unique, unlike any time that came before. But I agree with most economists that the Great Recession will be long and deep, but the economy will recover. We won't see the bubble years of the 90s and 00s again, but that's a good thing for economic stability.

I can think of a few more reasons [not to do the project]:

1) You have limited resources (check)
2) You have higher priorities (check)
3) You could re-start it in 5 or 10 years (check)
4) The price may come down in the meantime (likely)

The whole point of financing the project is to spread the costs. The first Debt payments won't even be due for at least 12-24 months, and the project can easily and justifiably be financed for 30 years. If NJ is going to have limited finances for 30 years, maybe they need to look at raising the gas tax (one of the lowest in the nation). As for higher priorities, that would be fine if Christie was redirecting the money. But he said "we can't afford it", so redirection would be strange, no? The price is highly unlikely to come down -- inflation will come back, and interest rates will never be less. Even a few year delay makes the project more expensive.

New Jersey is dependent on New York for its economic survival. They have done a remarkable job of convincing New Yorkers to move to NJ and commute. But rich New Yorkers are not going to live in NJ if the can't get to work.

I don't know. This just starts making it look like incompetence all around.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/08/nyregion/08jersey.html?_r=1

Miles,
Thank you for your comment.
What is your perspective on the military industrial complex budget role in this "recession" and our future economic picture?
I am for support of soldiers and recognize that we need some defense. I think the proportion of the "pie" is out of balance and a waste, much corruption.
Wasn't there a $9 billion disappearance in Iraq?
More thoughts about other aspects of this subject, another time.

Wait, wait, wait... the point of Iraq and Afghanistan was to make Blackwater, er Dick Cheney, very rich and a few other defense contractors. It's just more effen corporate welfare and a troff for the rich to gorge from the rest us.

Allan L. - You state that the CRC Project won't do anything to improve traffic between Portland and Vancouver. Have you ever been stopped during a bridge lift? I know back in late July on a thursday afternoon about 4:00 P.M. or so we were stopped dead for a full 15 minutes on our way to Jantzen Beach. NOTHING MOVED during that time, no busses, no trucks, NOTHING. I won't even comment on the huge amount of air pollution this creates from idling vehicles. I suspect there were easily 2-3,000 vehicles on both sides of the river delayed by this bridge lift- maybe more. Is your TIME worth something?
I know mine is and I suspect lots of people stuck that day would say the same thing. And this happens at least one or more times each day...

Dave A.,
I guess the draw is a problem that I'm not much affected by, so I'm not attuned to it. But I can think of several ways of mitigating this problem that would not cost $6 billion. Why not, for example, limit the number and the times of the lifts? Schedule lifts and publish the schedule? Re-route I-5 to the Glenn Jackson bridge so that long distance through traffic is not funneled through downtown Portland? There are probably other things that could be done as well.