I hope the Quitter picks a viable VP candidate.

Two clueless presidents in a row, and both as firsts.

They just seem right "fringe" because so many of the Democratics and Democratic groups have wandered so far to the left.

There's many Tea Party-like Republicans like myself who post here and are in agreemnet with the host 85-95% of the time.
If more Democratics had remanined like Marc Abrahms and Jack Bogdanski the Tea Party would only appear to be a couple issue steps away.
But there are millions of BlueOregon, Adams, Burkholder and further left types who by contrast allow the casting of traditional conservatives and even moderate Rs as having turned hard right.

Looking around our own back yard it's pretty obvious that it's the hard core lefties and their left wing causes that are setting the comparative.

And the last thing they want is a moderate Dudley busting their 25 year party in Oregon.

Sarah Palin falls under my rule for most presidential candidates: If you think you should be president, that proves you don't have the judgment to be president.

Your friend's take here is comforting. Rather than see this as new ground, it's standard procedure. Things always happen this way. If you were arguing for this cyclical pattern, you could certainly point to the Tea Party's pious defense of the Constitution and wonder why these same patriots were unmoved when Bush and Cheney were using it as toilet paper?

Was there an 8-year lag in the genuine moral outrage, or is this - as your friend suggests - a party out of power, responding with a scary political figure?

I also agree that there's no Eisenhower on the horizon - but how could there be? The last of the Greatest Generation is leaving us, and the Fun Generation had no chance of producing a man like that. The Boomers are my people, but even I can see what a disaster we've been for this country. I'm proud of some of the social aspects, but the overall responsibility level and wisdom? Not so much.

If I were to write a book about the Republicans from George W. Bush onwards, I would call it: "A Stampede of Morons." It does seem that the GOP is like a dog frantically rushing around in ever tightening circles of dumb as it chases its own tail.

Yet, I still can't imagine they'd nominate Sarah Palin for president. There is a limit to stupid. My guess would be that their candidate will be Senator John Thune of South Dakota. I'm not saying I'm a fan, but America is still able to choose someone more presidential than Sarah Caribou-boo.

As for the bigger picture, what worries me is that this is not one of those short-term cyclical waves. I want it to be, but every now and then in history, a long-term wave rolls in and countries collapse. Especially when the people holding the purse strings are deliberately running it into the ground - cashing out on the way down.

I'm worried that America is all but finished - that this is the end game of greed and plunder, and Sarah Palin is just a footnote - the clown who comes forward and announces that the circus is over.

But there is football to watch, and music to play. I'm going to relax and think reassuring thoughts. I'll worry about the future on Monday.

It's no surprise that any well organized political effort with a different point of view is flourishing. I really hoped for much better from the Dems. Palin has no chance to be Pres, but I guess if you can't fix things you should get out of the way and let someone else in who can.

God, I am hankering for a third party so bad it's like physical thirst.

The tea party...they gave us the phrase "lobbyists are a criminal class". That phrase tells me something good can come of their efforts. But then, I tend to wax eternally hopeful.

Senator Conrad from North Dakota would be a great model for an ascendant third party of moderates. Just to keep things simple, we could just name the new party the Conrad party.

Or we could just move to New Zealand.

Sorry, but I think New Zealand has correctly pulled their welcome mat.

As Ben mentioned, the rise of the Tea Party movement is a reaction to the strong leftward push by Democratics and by a large proportion of Republicans. It really doesn't seem to matter which party's in power - one of the most common complaints when Republicans had control of Congress was that they started acting like little Democrats once they got in.

And while some may refer to Palin as a clown, these same individuals refer to every Republican that way. To them, Reagan was an idiot, and of course, who could forget the memorable Chimpy McBush moniker? Sarah's just the latest target of Leftoid bile.

Be that as it may, it seems unlikely that she'd entertain the idea of running for President because, really, she has everything right now: she commands hundreds of thousands of dollars just to show up at an event to give a speech. Virtually every candidate that she's endorsed has gone on to win in the primaries. Like her or not, call her a clown if you feel you must; the fact of the matter is that she's on a roll that you can only imagine. She has power and cred - obviously, given her endorsement victories. She pulls down big bucks just for talking. And unlike Obambi, she doesn't feel the need to go on "The View" nor "The Tonight Show".

She does it on her own.

Increasingly, many Americans are regaining an appreciation of what it means to be independent, and to be free.

Leftward push by democrats? What are Ben and Max smoking?

On health care the Democrats have moved to the right for about 60 years now. Harry Truman proposed a full-on single payer "socialized medicine" plan after the 1948 election - what we got this year is quite watered down from that.

Obama as "wound down" the war in Iraq and escalated the war in Afghanistan. Do you think George McGovern would have done the same if he had been elected today?

Cap and Trade? A compromising approach to a global problem that every reputable scientist (read "Merchants of Doubt for information on the disreputable, bought frauds who feed the global warming denial lobby) that the Democrats can't even get enough of their own members on board with to pass!

The list goes on and on. Any claim that the Democrats have moved "far left" is laughable wingnut spin.

So tired of the words left and right. They have totally blended, as animal farm predicted.

The new words are "waste", "cronyism", and
"stagnation", and "status quo", and "political correctness".

They are the enemy, not the "left", or, the "right", although the extremes of the right and left have done a great job maintaining an ugly status quo.

Best example is the prison guard's union in California, that got all sorts of laws passed by getting their politicians elected. Laws that filled their prisons up to breaking point and let the guards earn 100K plus a year, like big fat ticks on a neglected dog.

I'm old enough to have now seen several of these political cycles, and what's more important than arguing about the particular people and issues -- which change with every cycle -- is understanding the underlying psychology, which hasn't changed throughout the history of mankind.

As Eric Hoffer best described it in "The True Believer," there is no left-right continuum, in which a person's beliefs can be pegged to some particular spot along a straight line from liberal to conservative.

Instead, if you want an accurate model, draw a circle, and place all of the extremists together, both liberal and conservative, at one of the poles.

In the end, as Henrik Van Loon described it in his book "Tolerance," published in the 1920s, all of the demagoguery of extremists is nothing but a smokescreen for fear, ignorance and greed.

"Any claim that the Democrats have moved "far left" is laughable wingnut spin."

Gordan do you live here in Oregon where that movement is in living color everywhere?

As for global warming it's the mother of all leftward trots picking up every far left wing cause imaginable.
Despite your faith in the lunacy of AGW
it is just that. History will devour and spit out that contrived consenus and the he enormous pile of cooked up observsations attributed to CO2 emissions.

Max

I voted for Bush twice, am voting for Dudley and can say very easily: "Sarah Palin is a bat-s**t crazy clown."

At this point, under no circumstances would I vote for an R at the national level. Doesn't mean I will vote D either.

"The Boomers are my people, but even I can see what a disaster we've been for this country. I'm proud of some of the social aspects, but the overall responsibility level and wisdom? Not so much."

Bill, I couldn't agree more. I keep expecting at some point to see Tom Brokaw write "The Worst Generation" for us. We have met the enemy, and he is us.

Gordon: Cap and Trade? A compromising approach to a global problem that every reputable scientist
JK: Then you must be able to answer a question for me:
Where do I find actual evidence that man is causing global warming. I mean, I see lots of cuddly animals and melting ice, but where is the proof that this is unusual and where is the proof that it is caused by man’s CO2?

Thanks
JK

Ben,
I believe that the ones controlling, want the debate focused on the continuation of the Democratic and Republican Party. The focus of the corporate owned media on the Tea Party hasn’t helped and divides the people further. In my opinion, this is a class situation, a taking down of our country situation, not a party divide here and I have thoughts I would like to share.

The Democratic Party is no longer what it was. The Republican Party is no longer what it was. They are no longer for the people and the people’s interest. They are mostly bought for by Corporations and people of wealth (Wall St) for their agenda.

There is a well known national blog, Firedoglake for example, considered D and Progressive. Many people commenting on there are angry at the D’s in Congress and at Obama. Other D’s are angry at those in Firedoglake who will point out their disgust with the D Party. Jane Hamsher, head of the blog has had several nasty threads on Blumenauer that went out on the national scene. She also went across political lines and she and Grover Norquist wrote a letter calling for a Rahm Emanuel resignation.
http://firedoglake.com/2009/12/23/jane-hamsher-grover-norquist-call-for-rahm-emmanuel%E2%80%99s-resignation/

I have no alliance with the local D’s you mentioned here. The party as far as I know and Blue Oregon types say nothing negative about the D’s. They stand for Wyden, Blumenauer, Obama, etc, no matter what they do. I think we need to recognize that these locals are in their own little insider club here. This may be the case across the country. The party machinery seems more important to them than the Constitution and Country.

I understand Bill McDonald’s complaint about the Tea Party as to where were they during the Bush/Cheney Regime? Apparently, they “see” now and have been impacted by those policies. Lots of people were asleep and are now awakening. The D’s carried on about Bush/Cheney, however, I do not recall the D Party being upset about our Constitution being trampled. So, interesting that those in the Tea Party want their Country and Constitution back and so do many now who used to be D’s like those progressives in Firedoglake. So do many people in our country no matter what party or label I am finding out.

I have had recent family reunions and a class reunion. It was very interesting that across the political line, my perception is that they “get it”, that Congress is no longer for the people, and recognize that our Country and Constitution are in serious trouble. They do not think much of the R's or D's. Across the political line then, we need to consider uniting. The ones pulling the country down want us to focus on the personal issues and we have done a good job of complying with that agenda, haven’t we? I think that the last thing they want is for the people from different political spectrum's to align on matters we can agree on. My view is that we need to work together on what we can agree upon and just talk to each other on viewpoints. Difficult as that may sound, but I found it OK on these recent reunions. Talk to each other, we are not as far apart as it may seem concerning our country. The party machinery is in our way here. Look what choices they brought out for Governor?

Ben, you and I often agree with each other. I admit, I may not be the typical left one, and quite frankly do not like the labels but have used them for discussion here. The one's pulling the country down here want us to stay with the old labels, the old worn out party system to continue the divide. We the people need to cross the political lines, put some personal matters aside, put the country and our well being up front and my thought is that is the only way our country can continue without completely being taken down. I too am worried as Bill that it may be too late.

BTW, I just noticed this in the Australian:

THE global climate change industry is now worth more than $528bn, powered by China's rise as one of the top nations for climate revenues.

See: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/china-powers-booming-world-climate-change-industry/story-e6frg8zx-1225925596796

That’s pretty big money standing to profit from global warming.

Thanks
JK

Max,
I read your comment and the points you made that I believe are errors actually started to generate a steady beat. If you ever use drum machines, I'd say the tempo was around 148.
My favorite though is your assessment that Sarah Palin doesn't need to go on the Tonight Show, because she does it her way. Actually, she has gone on the Tonight Show. She loves being on TV. Remember, she appeared on SNL, and in fact, she'll be in the crowd watching her daughter on Dancing with the Stars on Monday.
She may have quit on Alaska as governor, but that hasn't stopped her from doing a reality show about
her home state.

And as far as not running for president, just yesterday she told FOX News, "If the American people were to be ready for someone who is willing to shake it up, and willing to get back to time-tested truths, and help lead our country towards a more prosperous and safe future and if they happen to think I was the one, if it were best for my family and for our country, of course I would give it a shot."

These comments were played on FOX as she appeared at a major GOP fundraiser in Iowa. Max, come on. I know she doesn't read the papers but don't you follow the news?

If she doesn't run, it's because the polls share my assessment that she has no chance, probably because there's a lot of other people who see through her thin act to the inner clown. And as for your ridiculous charge that I call all Republicans clowns, the Oregon politician I liked most - and I met a lot of them in my banquet captain days - was Victor Atiyeh. I can't believe Sarah Palin is in the same business, much less the same party as Victor Atiyeh.

As far as her being on a major roll, you couldn't be more correct. Anytime she's on TV the ratings for that show spike. She is a big phenomenon but then again, so is Lady Gaga.

clinaman,

I hear ya.

But I don't think it it too late.

We need to get to it,, but locally.

We are very close to doing so around here and the toppling of the status quo establishment has never been closer.

The biggest obstacle are the many on the left they can't stomach risking Ds losing any power at any level.
Look at their rhetoric in the Kiz/Dudley
debate.

And the long winded diverting into Bush and Palin chatter weakens our potential to dismantle here in Oregon what must be dismantled.

Milwaukie Light Rail with Urban Renewal is a story of Oregon's entrenched disfunction and corruption. Multiple layers of hijacked goverment are perptrating these schemes.

Killing them both would be the catalyst to fixing many other things.

Ben,
I hope it is not too late. It will be if the people don’t step up. We cannot depend on those who “are in” to take care of the problems. They are the problem and generally people weren’t paying attention until this dire hour.

It looks like despite reality, the light rail people are trying desperately to make this happen - they are really stretching to try to get Fed dollars "from the future"?
They have carried on way over the top on urban renewal to the detriment of our schools and public safety, and our livability in general.

Bill McDonald's mention of Vic Atiyeh and Sarah Palin in the R Party goes to show how much that Party is no longer the same. If I had to make a characterization, I would say the R Party has been hijacked and the D Party has betrayed many.

Why are the D's so worried? Look at the mess we are in here. I fault both the D and R Party for the candidates. Still for Wyden and Blumenauer? Why couldn't the R's have come up with someone like Atiyeh?

It may have to do with the generation thing that McDonald has been writing about.

I too sense the urgency of all this.
Take care Ben.

Why couldn't the R's have come up with someone like Atiyeh? ???

Jim Huffman is an entirely honorable, intelligent and capable candidate.

Yet he's the perfect example of what the left does in casting any R as right wing and unacceptable. Wyden is proof they will accept any D for ever.

Ben,
I meant for Governor. Palin was Governor and so was Atiyeh, and to illustrate quite a difference in how the R Party has changed.

I do not know about Jim Huffman. I will be looking for what he stands and also if there are any independent or third party candidates. Like I said, I am thoroughly disgusted with the R's and the D's. The entire system has worn itself out with corruption and I am done with their games they play in Congress - trading votes, ammendments, thousands of pages they vote on and couldn't possibly have seriously considered.

I agree, the entrenched D's will accept Wyden and Blumenauer, no matter what. Many D's are disgusted with them as well though and I suspect will not be able to vote for them. I do not intend to vote for those who I feel have betrayed my country and constitution and am more than willing to give another party a chance.

Bill,

If you ever use drum machines, I'd say the tempo was around 148.

Actually, I've never used a drum machine - nor a drum, for that matter.

in fact, she'll be in the crowd watching her daughter on Dancing with the Stars on Monday.

So I take it that if your child was performing, you'd not bother to sit in the crowd, cheering him/her on? Well of course not. Because if you did, someone might accuse you of loving to be on tv, rather than being there for your kid.

I understand that you despise Palin, just as you despised Reagan and others on the conservative side. The fact that you deeply dislike such people, however, in no way implies that your views are correct, regardless of how deeply you feel that they should be considered to be so.

She may have quit on Alaska as governor, but that hasn't stopped her from doing a reality show about
her home state.

That line may or may not play on Leno's show. However, she saved Alaska millions by stepping aside in the face of lawsuit after lawsuit - all of which were subsequently found meritless.

And she didn't run and hide. Far from it: you may not agree with her political endorsements - I don't either. But the fact of the matter is that she has called winners in virtually every primary in which she's endorsed a candidate.

"If the American people were to be ready for someone who is willing to shake it up, and willing to get back to time-tested truths, and help lead our country towards a more prosperous and safe future and if they happen to think I was the one, if it were best for my family and for our country, of course I would give it a shot."

Would you have said anything different, had the query been put to you? Of course not. Does it mean that she's running for President? Nope.

Let's go to the wayback machine and take a look at what I said:

Be that as it may, it seems unlikely that she'd entertain the idea of running for President because, really, she has everything right now: she commands hundreds of thousands of dollars just to show up at an event to give a speech.

I don't think - at this point - that she'll run for that office, Bill. I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time it's happened.

Now, let's take up the last point:

And as for your ridiculous charge that I call all Republicans clowns, the Oregon politician I liked most - and I met a lot of them in my banquet captain days - was Victor Atiyeh

Let's get something straight and on the record, Bill: at no point did I say that Bill calls all Republicans clowns. That would have been as false and malicious as the claim that you have just made.

What I said was very clear, and very clearly not directed toward any specific individual. And while some may refer to Palin as a clown, these same individuals refer to every Republican that way. To them, Reagan was an idiot, and of course, who could forget the memorable Chimpy McBush moniker?

You may (or may not) have been among those people. Given your antagonistic attitude, however, it appears that I may inadvertently have struck a nerve.

Sorry about that.

At least I've never stooped to the level of calling your views "ridiculous".

Not everyone here can make that claim.

Max,
I don't see any wiggle room for you here, or as Sarah would say it, you can't refudiate what you wrote:
"And while some may refer to Palin as a clown, these same individuals refer to every Republican that way."

That came shortly after I wrote that, "Sarah Palin is just a footnote - the clown who comes forward and announces that the circus is over."

If I referred to Sarah Palin as a clown, then I must be one of the same individuals who refer to every Republican that way.

But I don't, Max. You're wrong. In the same comment, I even mention Republican Senator John Thune of South Dakota who strikes me as a formidable candidate for president if he runs. The rest of them? Newt Gingrich? Mitt Romney? Sarah Palin?

You might as well rename yourselves, "The Committee to Reelect President Obama."

JK, I suggest you pick up "Merchants of Doubt," which exposes the lack of science, the extreme free-market ideology, and the corporate paymasters behind the global warming DENIERS, not the mass of scientists who have come to the conclusion, based upon analysis of data (and no, it's not cooked up despite what Rush Limbaugh and Jim Inhofe might be telling you) that human-caused global warming has been underway for several decades now. The IPCC reports would be a good starting point for you, Jim. Read them, not the lies and distortions of those who want to keep hold of their profits and their ideological prejudices.

Thanks for the Australian article link, JK. Perhaps that's our hope - that climate change becomes profitable and compatible with free market principles.

That would leave just the incorrigible ideologues on the "global warming is a hoax" kick. Unfortunately, we've got them in spades right now.

Just found this-
More to story and graphs, etc.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/143051/Americans-Renew-Call-Third-Party.aspx

Americans Renew Call for Third Party
Fifty-eight percent of Americans, and 62% of Tea Party supporters, favor third party
by Jeffrey M. Jones

PRINCETON, NJ -- Americans' desires for a third political party are as high as they have been in seven years. Fifty-eight percent of Americans believe a third major political party is needed because the Republican and Democratic Parties do a poor job of representing the American people. That is a significant increase from 2008
and ties the high Gallup has recorded for this measure since 2003.

Gordon: JK, I suggest you pick up "Merchants of Doubt," which exposes the lack of science, the extreme free-market ideology, and the corporate paymasters behind the global warming DENIERS,.....
JK: I asked for evidence, not a suggestion to read a book.

Gordon: The IPCC reports would be a good starting point for you, Jim.
JK: Please show me the actual evidence, not a suggestion that I slog through thousands of pages looking. Most of the IPCC report is merely reviewing published papers about climate and climate models.

Gordon: Read them, not the lies and distortions of those who want to keep hold of their profits and their ideological prejudices.
JK: It appears that you have never bothered to look for any evidence behind your belief, or else you would be able to say Ms. X found [place quote here describing empirical research] in her paper in [journal] . I’ll bet you just saw Al’s flick and bought it hook-line & sinker.

Gordon: Thanks for the Australian article link, JK. Perhaps that's our hope - that climate change becomes profitable and compatible with free market principles.
JK: Of course you completely missed the point: you claimed there was massive oil money behind the deniers & I showed that there is even more money to be made by spreading warming claims.

As to reading, I hear that The Hockey Stick Illusion is a first class treatment of the real climate story.

(Its really too bad our local true believer, David Appell, didn’t take my advice a couple years ago and write an expose - it could have made him both famous and rich and I pointed him to all he needed to do the book.)

Thanks
JK

Perhaps that's our hope - that climate change becomes profitable and compatible with free market principles.

Oh it has...carbon credits. Where rich people can buy their way out of doing what everyone else is expected to do. Just like it has always been.
And "sustainability" is the "dot-com" of this decade. It is going to reach its blowing point just like the dot-coms did, and blow up as well. Probably in a much more dramatic fashion. The difference is that the dot-com bust was private money. Sustainability is mostly tax-payer funded. And we're all gonna lose.

Jon,

Where in the rise of the Internet bubble did all the start-ups need massive Federal stimulus funding to actually get their business going?

They did not and they, unlike the "Green" industry, did not rely on their antithesis to create their products.

All those wind turbines and solar panels are created in factories whose energy to create them is powered in some part on oil.

There is not a Green bubble and there never will be because like nuclear energy, the start-up costs are so prohibitive that you need massive amounts of Federal funding to go from a homegrown start-up to a major player on the scale of IBM or Oracle.

With the dot com boom, all you needed was your computer, your vision and a small business loan. You need 1000 times more for your "green" vision.

If I am wrong, explain to me how a start-up wind turbine company is just as cheap as me starting up my own Internet advertising link business. I would love to know the secret without having to apply for a Federal grant...If that is possible.

I like how Max accepts the notion of the daughter of an allegedly serious politician going on Dancing with the Stars without hesitation. I think that says quite a bit about the state of American politics.

Our current state of affairs is not the fault of the politicians, it's the fault of the PEOPLE who elect them. Ignorance is bliss.

the start-up costs are so prohibitive that you need massive amounts of Federal funding to go from a homegrown start-up to a major player on the scale of IBM or Oracle.

Bull. There are people out there with enough money to do this. And the feds cant just keep printing money. The bottom line is private investment isnt going to happen because everyone wants this to happen "now" and the technology just isnt there yet. Its not a good investment. At least the "eco-wall" being dropped from the Edith Green federal building downtown is some proof that even the government is figuring this out.

Voluntad, I believe Jon's comment on the potential "Sustainable Bubble", somewhat like the "dot-com Bubble" is based on the illusion factor. The Sustainable Bubble is likely when the taxpayers, who are paying for most of it, gets the Bill. And that will be compounded by performance audits of many of the so-called sustainable products/systems.

An interesting table of performance audits from the summer edition of trade magazine "Design Solutions", lists kg. of net carbon emissions from producing one (1) metric tone of various materials:

Aluminum 4,532 Net Carbon Emissions
Plastic 2,502 "
Steel 649 "
Concrete Block 291 "
Concrete 264 "
Glass 154 "
Brick 88 "
MDF -382 "
Framing Lumber -457 "

This list helps explain, as one example, why many of us question the total call for density, height zoning of our Planning gurus. Building 35 story aluminum-plastic-steel buildings surrounded by concrete has been proven to emit more carbon than other planning models, even taking into account prophesied less carbon by less product/human traffic trips.

If you consider the manufacturing carbon footprint combined with the energy performance of materials, then you get down to the real components of what is "sustainable". That is what our market isn't doing to be fair to the consumer. But the message is slowly getting out there, and the Bubble will come.

This why I cannot vote for the GOP or teabaggers

http://gayrights.change.org/blog/view/montanas_gop_insists_gay_people_should_be_jailed

One thing that's really getting old is Glenn Beck and the Tea Party speaking in code words and then rushing to act offended when they're called on it.
It's standard right wing stuff. You say something that is totally clear to everyone, but then when you're called on it, you act offended and sensitive about it, and deny being that way.
Glenn Beck's recent rally in Washington was all about religious values and returning America to its rightful path. Racists? Not Glenn and his fans.
Meanwhile, on Glenn's show he was reacting to a video clip of President Obama and he said, "Special interest! What planet have I landed on? Did I slip through a worm hole in the middle of the night and this looks like America? It's like the damn Planet of the Apes. Nothing makes sense!"
That's racist, and it's meant to be seen that way.
Sarah Palin - who was also at the rally - and Glenn Beck are basically mean losers and I think they both suck.

Conservative activists on Saturday picked Rep. Mike Pence (R-Ind.) as their choice for president in 2012. Former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin -- who was the vice presidential candidate on the unsuccessful 2008 GOP ticket -- was voted the pick for vice president in 2012.

BTW, Bill - Meanwhile, on Glenn's show he was reacting to a video clip of President Obama and he said, "Special interest! What planet have I landed on? Did I slip through a worm hole in the middle of the night and this looks like America? It's like the damn Planet of the Apes. Nothing makes sense!"
That's racist, and it's meant to be seen that way. - although I don't care for Beck, I do support fairness in general.

So if you're going to call him a racist, you should at least quote in context.

You used to be kind of a funny guy, and nowadays you seem bitter and full of vitriol. I don't know what happened, but I do know I liked the old Bill a lot better. If you're just beta-testing a new version, it's buggy. The previous version seemed better.

Jon and Lee,

I don't believe we are disagreeing at all. As both of you have stated there are costs to the taxpayer for the "Green" bubble that was not present for the dot com bubble. This is my main point, the whole "Green" industry cannot be started up in your garage and increased to a scale of IBM or Oracle without significant Federal funding paid for by higher taxes.

I get a tad irritated when people bring up the "Green" bubble in the same breadth as the dot com bubble. The dot com bubble was homegrown and did not require massive Federal stimulus in tax subsidies and Federal funding. For the "Green" bubble to occur, Americans will have to stomach higher taxes to finance multiple Federal stimuli, which looking at the political mood of the country will not occur if Republicans gain power of either the House or Senate in 2010 or 2012.

Max's Right Wing Playbook: "You seem bitter and full of vitriol."
This is a later version of, "You are blinded by your hatred of President Bush."*

* This was used back when right-wingers were calling Bush "Our Winston Churchill." You know, when he was doing his damage. Now that he's gone, it's fashionable for even the right wing to dump on Bush and say he wasn't a true conservative. Charming. And it's also okay to be angry again after wondering why people got upset at Bush and Cheney. Plus, it's safe to start believing in freedom and the Constitution again after taking 8 years off. How very brave. Check with right wing headquarters, Max - anger is back. Are you saying the Tea Party isn't full of vitriol? You've got to update your playbook.

As for the Glenn Beck quote, you're doing exactly what I described. The phrase "Planet of the Apes" is racist. He knows why he said that. Just like he knew what he was doing when he said President Obama has a deep-seated hatred of white people.

Thanks for the kind words about once liking my sense of humor. I admit that changes everything. I will say I'm 100% in agreement with the Tea Party for being angry at how it's going. I approve of that part of the Tea Party. I wish we could have all worked together when this started. My frustration is mainly at watching how this anger is directed.

Since we're changing the tone, may I ask how you people came up with Christine O'Donnell? I think along with the anger we are seeing a sort of visceral desire to reward stupidity, and I can't see how that's going to help save America.

As for anyone who thinks Palin will be a presidential candidate.... maybe as an indie, but no major party has the stones to run a female for president yet.

Bill,

I don't have a playbook. Moreover, I disagreed with Bush's Iraq war (though I agreed with going into Afghanistan because of their open support for terror training camps). I even stated my views publicly on various sites before it became fashionable.

As for the Glenn Beck quote, you're doing exactly what I described. The phrase "Planet of the Apes" is racist. He knows why he said that. Just like he knew what he was doing when he said President Obama has a deep-seated hatred of white people.

And wasn't it Joe Biden who described him as "clean and articulate"? Wasn't it Harry Reid who said that he had no "Negro accent"?

Excuse me, but your antipathy for Beck notwithstanding, he really is guilty of less than Biden and Reid delivered. That's what I'm talking about. I think I mentioned that I'm not a Beck fan, but that he deserves fair treatment. It's not fair to single his statements out while ignoring those of Biden, Reid, and others.

Unfortunately, you kind of blew it when asking how you people came up with Christine O'Donnell. While I'm pretty disgusted with both Democrats and Republicans, I'm not affiliated with the Tea Party movement. I was pretty amazed by the Delaware outcome. I subscribe to the concept of voting for the person who most closely matches your beliefs and is electable - which means that s(he) needs to resonate with the Independent bloc. While I don't think she does, I don't live in Delaware.

She is another Palin call in the primary election, and she won. I'll be interested to see how Palin's endorsements work in the general elections.

Bill, your humor has always been a gift well-deployed. I just hope you can get it back. You've been surly too long.

Wow...that last line reminds me of an old song.

Bet you can play it, too.

Bill, I have to mostly agree with Max's comments and appreciate his tone he displayed in his remarks to you.

"America. What planet have I landed on? ...Its like the Planet of the Apes. Nothing makes sense." I'm sure you've seen the movie once or more. The movie characterized "chaos" and not "making sense". To make Beck's remarks racist is a stretch. I enjoy your commentaries, but not this one.

I have many decade long friends who several times have used phrases or words that some would take as racists, but exhibit and practice just the opposite. I respect them more than pseudo non-racist claimers. And I think you know what I'm conveying as your stories about your head waiter stories exhibit.

Sick of the whole business of people being called racist. People are all racist to some extent. ALL of us.

I got called a bigot for weeks while collecting signatures to recall our national embarrassment down at the mayor's office. It was astounding to watch people just rip in to someone they didn't even know, and hadn't had a conversation with.

Now I get accused of bias if I react acidly to stupid cliches like "Islam is a religion of peace," or "Islam is not to blame for 9/11". Yeah, and Islam doesn't have anything to do with the Koranic exhortation to its adherents to engage in violence against Christians, Jews, atheists, women, apostates, blasphemers, and gays, right?

Of course not.

Planet of the Apes was just a poor choice of words. Mr Beck was really trying to say "Clockwork Orange", sillies.

"This president, I think, has exposed himself as a guy, over and over and over again, who has a deep-seated hatred for white people or the white culture," Beck said. "I don't know what it is."

"I'm not saying he doesn't like white people," Beck said. "I'm saying he has a problem. He has a -- this guy is, I believe, a racist."

I believe that's a coded message to his fans who are unhappy with President Obama based on race. Maybe it's because I've lost my sense of humor, but that's what I believe.

By the way, when did the right wing get so spineless? Nobody's really in the Tea Party. Nobody really liked President Bush. Nobody really approves of Christine O'Donnell. Nobody really believes in Glenn Beck. Everything is taken out of context or misinterpreted. It's a big tub of toxic goo.

Look, we're not all in that 30% that buys every little thing FOX News dishes out. Wait, you do accept the existence of FOX News, don't you? No, of course not. Just because the screen has a FOX News logo on it, doesn't mean the words coming out of the set are from an actual organization called FOX News.

I could be taking the FOX News logo out of context.

Obama is no racist, but he sure can do the dumbest s*** for a guy that smart.

Like going to Cairo and reciting a quote from one of the the Koranic verses: "be conscious of God and speak always the truth". When the quote is in the beginning of a passage that ends with the following admonition: "Oh ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty onto him." (9; 120-23).

When Beck says crazy stuff like Obama's a racist, he's really trying to say that Obama seems to care more about making people happy in Cairo, than in, say, pleasing the 70% of Americans who don't want a mosque two blocks from ground zero.
Instead, Obama goes and issues a bunch of platitudes about religious tolerance, which most Americans are tired of hearing about. A lot of us would like to never hear about all the drama associated with religion, again, EVER.

That's why the craziest tea party people like O'Donell and Paladino are winning. Over the mosque insanity. Paladino won in New York because he ran a TV ad "I will use eminent domain powers of the state to stop the mosque". Bingo, landslide victory. I'm just praying that the chess guy will be successful and outbid Donald Trump so the developer guy can walk away with a cool 10 million and take his project 8 blocks away.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/19/AR2010091904664.html

As November nears, voters turn backs on both parties

What happens if they hold an election in which voters don't like either of their choices?

Want to add from link above:

In an Associated Press poll released last week, 38 percent of respondents approved of the job Democrats in Congress are doing, while 60 percent disapproved - not exactly where any party wants to be this close to an election. The ratings for Republicans in Congress, however, were even worse, with 31 percent approving and 68 percent disapproving. A New York Times/CBS News survey released last week also showed congressional Democrats' approval rating at a measly 30 percent, while congressional Republicans' sat at a ghastly 20 percent.

Nobody on the right we'll just come out and say anything. They're more nuanced than John Kerry.
They're caught in a dysfunctional meltdown. You have an idiot like Sarah Palin helping even bigger idiots like Christine O'Donnell. You have old Turd Blossum himself, Karl Rove, coming out against Christine, and Bill Maher playing her old fame whore clips from his show where she talks about the satanic worshipers she hung out with in high school.
It's a Stampede of Morons.
Meanwhile Max and other right wingers are tying themselves into knots trying to say where they stand.
Max, do you want Sarah Palin as President of the United States or not? Remember from your comment? She taught us all to be independent and feel free again. Surely, you support her for President?
I believe the GOP had to shut off their brains to get behind George Bush. This has allowed every conservative dumb-ass in America to feel like they have a chance at the big time. Anything that smacks of intelligence is frowned upon as fancy book learnin' probably from an elitist university somewhere.
Look, folks. Your little teenage crush on George W. is over. America needs you now. It's time to flip the brains back on.

I don't believe we are disagreeing at all. As both of you have stated there are costs to the taxpayer for the "Green" bubble that was not present for the dot com bubble. This is my main point, the whole "Green" industry cannot be started up in your garage and increased to a scale of IBM or Oracle without significant Federal funding paid for by higher taxes.

I think we are disagreeing on one point...federal funding. If technologies needed for the sustainable craze were a viable investment, the private funding would be there. There are people with the money to do it. The only reason taxpayer money is required is because the government prints money for emotional, ideological causes. Viability is not an issue. Private investors cant do it that way, or they become broke.

Ben - If you were half the libertarian you think you are, then you'd understand why the politics of changing this country need to expand beyond fiscal conservatism. Until we are all free and equal, there is no value in voting for people who will trample your rights in a heartbeat. Not having full rights or worse still being criminalized, is an economic harm to those being singled out.

***************************************

As for the suggestion, the R's need another Atiyeh, sorry, he was a lame one. Likeable guy sure. But if brains were dynamite, he couldn't blow his nose. I spent 45 minutes talking to him once in the Chicago airport while he was governor. He clearly had no real grasp of economics or business growth or the future. He was timber this and timber that, living in the past.

I was leaving the state at the time to move back East for a high tech job because finding decent work here was so hard and I was in a dead end job.

But I hated CT and I did not much like that job so I came back for a second time.

Jon - There would be no interstate highway system without federal funding. There would have been no space program without federal funding (and the spin-offs from the space program changed things forever - you are probably to young to remember tube technology or when transistor radios were hotter than I-Pods - but the development of the technology our nation (and the world for that matter) currently runs on was funded by the feds via the space program. I can guess this would not be taught in schools. There would be no cell phones or satellite TV/Radio without the space program.

One question about governmental spending should be does it benefit all of us looking forward or like TARP does it just support weasels?

The big oil interests have been trying to kill new energy ideas for a long time. They have the $$ to either pursue or kill. They mistakenly think it's in their best interests to kill. Short term it might be true (and unfortunately, stock options make execs extremely short sighted), but long term it's not true. So the govt should help development of new energy sources but perhaps a piece of the deal is part ownership of the company in return for the start-up cash.

LucsAdvo, I don't recall all the tax subsidies that enticed people to buy new technology like I do today. In the 50's I never got a tax subsidy to buy a transistor radio, nor in the 80's to buy a cell phone. That's the difference between the past and the present.

Why should other taxpayers here in Portland be paying $16,400 dollars in tax subsidies for a $19,000 solar system on top of my roof? Sure, the taxpayer's space program helped develop solar panel systems (actually just a small part of development costs), but why should taxpayers support 86% of the cost?

Government can help develop new technology but it doesn't need to buy it for all of us. Good ideas and products sell themselves.

There would be no interstate highway system without federal funding. There would have been no space program without federal funding (and the spin-offs from the space program changed things forever

Interstate highways should be federally funded. To an extent, even public transit.
But giving millions in benefits to developers because they use solar panels or special kinds of lights shouldnt be happening. The only reason architects and developers use "green" or "sustainable" tech is because of the government subsidies. Otherwise they wouldnt use them at all. Not yet. They just dont wash financially. Except when its a public project, thats "free" money.

It's a Stampede of Morons.
Meanwhile Max and other right wingers are tying themselves into knots trying to say where they stand.
Max, do you want Sarah Palin as President of the United States or not? Remember from your comment? She taught us all to be independent and feel free again. Surely, you support her for President?

Bill, please try not to twist my words. I did not say what you claim, above, that I said. What I said was: Increasingly, many Americans are regaining an appreciation of what it means to be independent, and to be free.

Clearly, I'm not tying myself in knots - equally clearly, you are.

If you can't even accurately quote what I said in a previous comment on this very site, how are we to believe your accuracy when you "quote" others, such as Beck?

As I have unambiguously stated previously here, I do not expect Palin to run for the office. I don't believe that she believes she's electable - and recent straw polls have borne out that conclusion.

believe the GOP had to shut off their brains to get behind George Bush. This has allowed every conservative dumb-ass in America to feel like they have a chance at the big time. Anything that smacks of intelligence is frowned upon as fancy book learnin' probably from an elitist university somewhere.

I believe the same of anyone who cast a vote for Obama - who, by the way, has never revealed his academic "achievements". Unlike Bush, and unlike Kerry (and those revealed that Bush actually did better, academically, than Kerry).

Yet Leftists descended upon Bush as an idiot; a guy who never cracked a book (even though he married a librarian). As mentioned previously, I supported Bush's invasion of Afghanistan, though not the Iraq activity.

Despite Bush's obvious idiocy and his close resemblance to a chimp (ooh, but if anybody dared to do that with Obama, he/she'd be a racist!), what did Obama do when he gained office? Why, he continued the policies set in place by Bush.

Very obviously, Bill - I'm not the one tying myself in knots, here. You own that distinction.

Look, folks. Your little teenage crush on George W. is over. America needs you now. It's time to flip the brains back on.

Well put, Bill - but wrong.

Here's a better line: Look folks. Your little tantrum over George W. is over. It's time to stop blaming him for every problem, and time to turn your brains on.

LOL. Since I got the hell out of Dodge (Portland) just over two years ago, I pop in here every few months to see what's happening. Looks like nothing much has changed.

Bill, the observations about your growing bitterness and vitriol from your past posts are spot on -- which surprises me since your man has been in power for the past 18 months. My best guess is that you are increasingly upset and full of angst over how The One has not lived up to his billing. Big letdown, eh? Well, you'd never admit it.

I have to tell you, life couldn't be better since I moved my family to Texas back in August 2008. Lessee...housing is about a third or 40% the price of Portland, taxes are far lower (no income tax), gas is about 80c a gallon cheaper than Portland, our public schools are infinitely better quality, the economy has fared probably the best of any state during the recession, and the "can do" attitude of Texans is a refreshing change over the "tolerant, progressive" attitude of the liberal Western Oregon base. We don't have homeless lining the streets here and at every freeway offramp. Texas ran a $9B state budget SURPLUS last year -- big difference over the huge deficit spending of the coastal lib states. We run a tight ship down here.

Yes, we have our "God and guns" (yes, carrying concealed & licensed is a "normal" thing for many of us down here) and we love it. It's amazing how great it is to live in a Republican-run state that practices fiscal restraint and eschews Obama stimulus funds. A state that takes its border & immigration situation seriously. A state that has provided 80 percent of all new jobs in the entire USA over the past 5 years. A state with great weather, where you can go golfing in January. Where it never rains for more than a few hours at a time.

Instead of sticking up for a losing and sliding situation in Oregon, Bill, why don't you come see what a vibrant growth economy is like? Why don't y'all come down here to Texas, Bill, and see how great it really is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FC16-4fh-Qc

Cheers,
Gerry

Sure, I'm upset about America under President Obama - the way Wall Street got taken care of and the rest of the country got screwed.
But one way to get the Democrats to do better is to give them some quality opponents. I don't see that happening with these idiots you people fawn over. One theory is that the Tea Party is actually good for the Dems.

As far as me sounding more vitriolic, my response is sure - I admit that. The situation is getting worse. I heard one ad saying we're paying 500 million in interest on the debt every day.

We were given this country in one condition and we are trashing it. We may even be destroying it.

If you're not mad now, what does to take to get you upset?

. . .Why don't y'all come down here to Texas, Bill, and see how great it really is.

Wouldn't it be a lot easier than the rest of us all moving out of Dodge, to just invite to Texas - Sam, Randy, Dan, Nick and Amanda and whoever else in the Multonmah County Commissioners and Metro is messing up our financial situation and livability here?
Hope the insiders see this, they may decide to go to greener pastures and leave us alone. Do you need some light rail down there?

Bill, don't worry, I'm upset. Obama was told clearly what needed to be done on many fronts. You're right, he screwed up the financial world. ObamaCare is a bust. And he's done nothing to improve the economy. His failure list is long.

I didn't like Obama's blame-game initially, and I'm done with his continuation of laying the blame all on Bush.

Philosophically, I must admit that I disagreed with Obama during his campaign even when he portrayed himself as a possible moderate demo, but now even more so as his deficit spending has increased three times more than Bush's deficit. A democrat like me can take just so much. That is why I don't even hold much credence in party labels.

"Politicians" like Sam Adams wouldn't last a minute here in the Houston area. We have "real" politicians here, like our governor Rick Perry. You put Perry up against the likes of Kitzhaber or Kulongoski - real lightweights, both. That sort of "Sam Adams" politician only exists and thrives in special places that have a high level of "progressiveness" caused by a large influx of California mindset (& Californian immigration).

We have light rail here in Houston but it's limited basically to downtown. Mass transit really doesn't work here in Texas because things are so spread out distance-wise. SUVs and F250s are the main mode of transit for just about everyone. I've kept a count, and in just over two years, I've only see 93 Subarus of any type and probably double that number of Priuses.

Heck, I can see 100 Subarus driving by sitting outside of Peet's Coffee at 15th & NE Broadway near my old house for 30 minutes. Those types of cars are considered "lefty cars" here.

I'll concede that things were in pretty bad shape when Obama was elected, and going down fast. Unfortunately the "cure" executed to date for the Clinton/Bush-induced "sickness" is making the patient worse-off.

And that's a big reason why the surge toward the Tea Party has happened. It's because Tea Party people see the only way out of our problem is to massively reduce spending. All of this racist talk is just fear-mongering. The people I know here who are Tea Party supporters are just ordinary soccer moms and concerned citizens, not radical right-wing bigots who are a half-jump away from becoming skinheads. I see the pictures of the Tea Party gatherings here and see plenty of people of all races, genders and persuasions.

And by the way, living in the Houston area (country's 4th largest city, and a VERY diverse mix of cultures & minorities) makes me laugh at the "progressives" who self-profess such tolerance and equality. If you live in super white-bread Portland, you have NO IDEA of what it's like to live in a multi-ethnic, multi-cultural city.

BTW, Portland stole the "Keep Portland Weird" from Austin, TX. They invented it first, and they do a MUCH better job at being weird & culturally awesome than Portland does, without the strange progressive bent that Portland developed over the past 20-25 years.

The matter of economics is a clear case of President Obama deceiving the voters. This wasn't a case of getting in office and then seeing things differently. Right after he became the President-Elect he called the usual suspects and ditched his economic team from the campaign.
This was chronicled by the great Matt Taibbi. Incidentally, Matt's new book will be out in November. It's called Griftopia and it's about how America has turned into a utopia for high finance thieves. That's the problem here - it's not the Dems vs. the Republicans as much as Wall Street and foreign bankers bleeding us all dry.

Gerry thinks Houston possesses diversity...check out Chicago. I grew up there.

Houston and Chi-town are about the same size, and possess one thing in common but not here...humidity and blazing temps all summer long.

You can have them both.

So far as Obama, I knew the game was rigged when he voted for FISA, after repeatedly stating he would not support the vote in the Senate. He didn't even have to vote, but he did and that said basically to the voter "Screw you. I work for the Boss". And that, any Chicagoan can tell you, is all you have to know.

. . That's the problem here - it's not the Dems vs. the Republicans as much as Wall Street and foreign bankers bleeding us all dry.

Yet it is our trusty Dems and R's who are sitting by and letting it bleed. No regulations and bailout upon bailout and it isn't over. What is wrong here, out of touch, or just plain bought out betrayers? They are part of the game or they would have put a stop to it.

Sarah Palin - didn't she used to be a hairdresser?

The bulk of my web reading is in other places, but in spare minutes I am going through all the comments here, a few at a time. I planned to read everything before saying any first thing BUT I've run out of patience with the lying 'Max' voice ... and by certain turns-of-phrase usage it sounds like LIARS Larson hisse'f or an audio programmed parrot of his.

Saying Palin puke gets "100s of thousands of dollars" to deliver her moose-peranto speeches. LIE! And saying Palin puke endorsed-candidates ALL won their primary election. LIE!

Media Matters .ORG -- gawd how LIARS HATE that website of true facts, and try to gag every mention of Media Matters .ORG truth reporting -- is my single source for proof 'Max' lies! at the outset of this thread and, I expect, all the way down in whatever other comments appear ... though I doubt I'll read them any more.

BTW, Palin and Beck's 9/11 event failed to sell out
- MediaMatters.ORG/blog/201009130022

Judge Rules Palin Speech Documents Are Public
- MediaMatters.ORG/strupp/201008260031
(Wherein a court ruling "found that Palin ..., was paid $75,000 for the appearance" speaking at (and booed by) a California college crowd. So if it took a court order to determine the only publicly-disclosed speech fee for Palin puke, then any statement of her other fees by 'Max' = lying!)

-
Earlier this summer Palin puke was scheduled to speak at some Teabagger party, somewhere in the Midwest, and the organizers announced her pre-scheduled fee as the reason Teabagger admission-ticket prices were over-the-top, whereupon Teabaggers refused to attend and fired the organizers. Palin puke cancelled her attendance. Then the party went on without her. All this is documented in Media Matters .ORG contemporaneous backpages, but dammed if I've got time to suss it out and serve it up where 'Max' lies! and fears to read its facts in truth.

This next repudiation of 'Max' lies! is so neat it deserves to be quoted at length.

Why is the Wash. Post artificially inflating Palin's endorsement success? - August 24, 2010, by Simon Maloy, MediaMatters.ORG

When Sarah Palin decided that she could better serve America by writing Facebook endorsements for Republicans running for office instead of actually holding a political office, the Washington Post decided they'd help out her new career path and create a webpage devoted specifically to tracking Palin's endorsements and the successes, or failures, of her preferred candidates. After racking up a streak of victories, Palin went on something of a skid and as of last week she boasted 11 candidates who had won their primaries and 10 who had lost ....

Palin came out with a new series of endorsements last week hoping to improve her average. And, if you check the Washington Post's endorsement tracker, you'll see her average has improved since then -- the Post now says she has picked 16 winning candidates and 10 losers.

There's just one problem: NONE of Palin's newly endorsed candidates have won any elections since she endorsed them. The Post is giving Palin credit for endorsing candidates who had ALREADY won their primaries, in some cases months ago.

... endorsement map, as it appears right now.

... click on the icons and you'll notice the dates don't match up at all.

Perhaps this is just a glitch in the Post's system, but as it stands right now they're giving Palin credit for helping to elect candidates who managed to win without Palin's endorsement.

So many are suspecting 'Max' lies! and now perhaps adding more comments can go on to convincingly prove it to EVERYone. Or backing off, staying silent now, and limit the lost validity to 'only' a strong stink of suspect.

.

Saying Palin puke gets "100s of thousands of dollars" to deliver her moose-peranto speeches. LIE! And saying Palin puke endorsed-candidates ALL won their primary election. LIE!

You off your meds again, Tensk? Do yourself a favor, and get back on 'em.

Fact: Palin does command a six-figure payment for her speeches, as was recently the case when she visited Oregon.

Fact: I never said that the candidates Ms. Palin endorsed all won their primary elections. I used the modifier, virtually. You should look it up, Tensk - it's a useful term, and accurate in the context of what I said.

http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/06/09/sarah-palins-winning-ways-endorsed-candidates-lead-the-field/

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2010/08/10/4861668-palins-endorsements-by-the-numbers-and-by-gender

Note, if you're able, that she has added a number of endorsements into the win column since these data appeared. Of course, there's really no point in attempting to bring facts into play with someone such as yourself, whose idea of discussion involves copious amounts of drool and all-caps condemnation of whomever dares disagree.

I suggest that in addition to getting back on your meds, you pursue a G.E.D. - or absent that, at least take a course in Reading For Comprehension.

Hope you get yourself the help that you apparently so desperately need.

Gerry we get it; you love your red state.I'll agree w/you about Scam Adams.

I've been to TX before and found it to be hot, humid full of bugs and basically a turd hole (except for the 'cue). If I had to give the world an enema I'd stick it there.

And so what about subarus and mass transit vs behemoth F-250s etc? Not everyone wants a $600 truck payment (those trucks ain't cheap).

As for jobs what's the avg income, poverty rate, % w/o health insurance there vs OR? How's the pollution in TX and all those refinery towns in E. TX along the gulf coast?

Land is cheaper in TX because you choose to sprawl. As my cousin in Dallas says the question in buying a home here is how close to the OK state line do you want to live? You like that attitude obviously, so you moved there.

Some of us like more compact cities so one needn't drive 30 miles a day & be dependent on a car.

And Perry? Hell he makes Shrub substantial. Isn't he barely ahead in the polls in a good year for the GOP? Didn't he get just 39% in 2006?Last I checked the TX governor doesn't really do much anyway.

As for Austin,it is pretty liberal too. The results in elections show it usually votes D.

Don't get me wrong; the wasting $$ on mass transit and streetcars while buses are neglected and the pork for developers to build condos nobody wants to live in in pursuit of some "density" agenda & the war on cars is annoying.

But god TX? Aloha, OR suits me fine.

OMG, I utterly forgot about the Tentsky! Hi pal!

Mike,

We have lots of critters here, that's for sure. And it is hot and humid for about 5 months out of the year. But an unprecedented and lasting record of growth (Texas gains 1,000 new residents a day) and job creation tells me that more people prefer to be here than not. You can get meaningful employment in Texas; in Oregon it is difficult at best.

F250s may not be cheap, but GM actually makes their trucks and SUVs here in the Republic of Texas -- something that they wouldn't (or couldn't?) do in Oregon. Too expensive, and too business-unfriendly. So yes, you see a lot more American cars driven here.

Perry was actually "W"'s Lieutenant Governor. And "W" was quite a good governor before he ran for Prez -- probably should have stayed governor. Perry has also done much good.

Austin is about as liberal as Texas gets. But by Portland lib standards, it's still quite "Red". I was in Austin all last Thursday. Didn't see a single homeless person on the street. Like I said, Austin has all the culture of Portland (even more) without the extreme progressive crap-side of Portland. Sam Adams wouldn't be tolerated in Austin, either. Yet you Portlanders seem to enjoy cutting him an endless amount of breaks. Mediocre leadership will always keep Portland a mediocre city.

If we didn't have more pollution than other areas, the rest of you in the US wouldn't have 50% of your refined petroleum and a good chunk of your natural gas.

Perry keeps talking about Texas seceding and I think that would be a great thing. There is no state that is self-sufficient in almost every way than Texas.

Remember, here in Texas we still actually MAKE things. We have industry. Hewlett-Packard, where I work, actually has two buildings on campus where they have honest-to-God assembly lines cranking out servers every day. They don't outsource that work to China and other locations like other companies do. Because Texas is still competitive.

If we got rid of the illegal population here in Texas, our "% of population with no medical insurance" would dramatically drop. Thank goodness Perry is bent on doing just that -- enforcing the law (which Obama refuses to do) and getting rid of those who shouldn't be here.

Aloha?!? Well, at least you're in Washington County. You don't have to deal with Sam the Scam and the hell-hole Portland Public School system. Consider yourself lucky.

Mike, here's something that went around after the election. Thought you and the bojack gang would enjoy it. It's a joke...I think....

Please note that Texas is the only state with a legal right
to secede from the Union . (Reference the Texas-American
Annexation Treaty of 1848.)

We Texans love y'all, but we'll probably have to
take action since Barack Obama won the election. We'll
miss you too.

Here is what can happen:

1: Barack Hussein Obama becomes President of the United States , and Texas immediately secedes from the Union.

2: George W. Bush will become the President of the Republic of Texas. You might not think that he talks too pretty, but we haven't had another terrorist attack, and the economy was fine until the effects of the Democrats lowering the qualifications for home loans came to roost.

So what does Texas have to do to survive as a Republic?

1. NASA is just south of Houston, Texas . We will control the space industry.

2. We refine over 85% of the gasoline in the United States.

3. Defense Industry--we have over 65% of it. The term "Don't mess with Texas," will take on a whole new meaning.

4. Oil - we can supply all the oil that the Republic of Texas will need for the next 300 years. What will the other states do? Gee, we don't know. Why not ask Obama?

5 Natural Gas - again we have all we need and it's too bad about those Northern States. John Kerry and Al Gore will have to figure out a way to keep them warm....

6. Computer Industry - we lead the nation in producing computer chips and communications equipment -small companies like Texas Instruments, Dell Computer, HP/EDS, Raytheon, National Semiconductor, Motorola, Intel, AMD, Atmel, Applied
Materials, Ball Microconductor, Dallas Semiconductor, Nortel, Alcatel, etc, etc. The list goes on and on.

7. Medical Care - We have the research centers for cancer research, the best burn centers and the top trauma units in the world, as well as other large health centers. The
Houston Medical Center alone employees over 65,000 people.

8. We have enough colleges to keep us getting smarter: University of Texas, Texas A&M, Texas Tech, Texas Christian, Rice, SMU, University of Dallas, University of Houston, Baylor, University of North Texas, Texas Women's University, etc. Ivy grows better in the South anyway.

9. We have an intelligent and energetic work force, and it isn't restricted by a bunch of unions. Here in Texas, it's a Right to Work State and, therefore, it's every man and women for themselves. We just go out and get the job done. And if we don't like the way one company operates, we get a job somewhere else.

10. We have essential control of the paper, plastics, and insurance industries, etc.

11. In case of a foreign invasion, we have the Texas National Guard, the Texas Air National Guard, and several military bases. We don't have an Army, but since everybody down here has at least six rifles and a pile of ammo, we can raise an Army in 24 hours if we need one. If the situation really gets bad, we can always call the Department of Public Safety and ask them to send over the Texas Rangers.

12. We are totally self-sufficient in beef, poultry, hogs, and several types of grain, fruit and vegetables, and let's not forget seafood from the Gulf. Also, everybody down here knows how to cook them so that they taste good. Don't need any food.

13. Three of the 10 largest cities in the United States, and 23 of the 100 largest cities in the United States, are located in Texas . And Texas also has more land than California, New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Massachusetts, Maryland, Rhode Island and
Vermont -- COMBINED.

14. Trade: Three of the ten largest ports in the United States are located in Texas.

15. We also manufacture cars down here, but we don't need to. You see, nothing rusts in Texas, so our vehicles stay beautiful and run well for decades.

This just names a few of the items that will keep the Republic of Texas in good shape. There isn't a thing out there that we need and don't have.

Now to the rest of the United States under President Obama: Since you won't have the refineries to get gas for your cars, only President Obama will be able to drive around in
his big 9 mpg SUV. The rest of the United States will have to walk or ride bikes.

You won't have any TV as the Space Center in Houston will cut off satellite communications.

You won't have any natural gas to heat your homes, but since Mr. Obama has predicted global warming, you will not need the gas as long as you survive the 2,000 years it will take to get enough heat from Global Warming.

So, in other words, go screw yourselves. Oh, that's right. You already have!

Signed, The People of Texas

P.S. This is not a threatening letter - just a note to give you something to think about!

SLEEP WELL TONIGHT...THE EYES OF TEXAS ARE UPON YOU!

Gerry

are the nukes in Texas?

just sayin'

Gerry Van Zandt: . . Please note that Texas is the only state with a legal right
to secede from the Union . (Reference the Texas-American
Annexation Treaty of 1848.)

Too bad Texas didn't secede from the Union 20 years ago. . . we wouldn't have had to deal with a Bush (a Texan?) President!!

Is there any shade, and are there any mountain lakes? I have to say, I have always been drawn to Texas, but only by ONE thing. The accent. I swoon for a voice speaking Texan. One of the reasons that I detested Bush so much. FAKE TEXAN ACCENT.

Now, Kay Bailey Hutchinson, I can listen to.
How Mccain could have passed her up for the political prom-queen Palin, well, he deserved to be swallowed up by the earth for that.

"W" Bush is sort of a strange hybrid of New England blue-blood with Texan. But yet, he's neither. It's almost surreal.

W lives up in Dallas these days, but Poppy & Bar live here in Houston. One sees him around town once in a while.

Kay Bailey Hutchinson is pretty much a RINO these days -- she evolved into this from being in Washington too long.

I remember when my wife and I told our Portland friends that we were moving to Texas. The most common answer was "I'm sorry to hear that."

I wish Texas would secede; it would solve a lot of problems. If it did, much of the rest of the country would say "Good riddance."

Only if they take MS, AL, GA, SC & LA as well...

(Hey, GVZ, whatever, whoever, what-the-hey: a holler back.)

I liked the list of the items that Texas keeps, keeping Texas. I hope the Permian Basin Gang does go its sovereign-self way.
[ref: Tarpley.NET/online-books/george-bush-the-unauthorized-biography/chapter-8-the-permian-basin-gang/ ]
Good luck getting trade negotiated with any of the Lower 47 it breaks away from ... NOT! Texas makes it - Texas can keep it.

Texas and the Midwest States is to the Eastern Establishment ('13 colonies'), as the Baku Basin-stans and the Ukraine is to Russia.
That is to say, (for 20 years now), independent sovereign neighbor countries.

I hope Texas secedes first and suddenly. The first domino and triggering secession of Vermont & Maine, Georgia & Florida, Wisconsin, and Michigan Ohio, then New Mexico Arizona Utah Colorado de-annexing, then California by default, Oregon Idaho Washington, all in quick succession (before the light dawns on WashDC), and then all the other 'States' scatter beans scatter ... domini domini domini you're all sovereign Nationstates, now.

Just like USSR did. No bloodshed, plenty hardship, ultimately reformed and re-established in local standing.
[My favorite eye-witness account of USSR dissolution model:
ClubOrlov.Blogspot.COM/2009/02/social-collapse-best-practices.html ]

Not caring how and which neighboring ex-States regroup 5 or 6 or 7 together forming new mini-USA 'regional' countries, each recognized as sovereign with U.N. seats, just so everything named as 'Federal' or 'National' is no more.
'Hey, Texas, all those US Military bases you got? There is no US-nation Military no more. Good luck with your unemployment statistics.'

No more 'Federal' Government. No more Federal Bureau of Investigation. No more none of it. Every independent 'regional' country grow your own. Just like the ('SR') pieces of USSR did.

Mainly it would finally clean out Congress, Executive bureaucracy, and kangaroo Judiciary once-and-for-all. Every partisan citizen gets his or her wish to see the removal of all enemy-opponent partisans -- the libs finally ditch the cons, the cons finally ditch the libs. We're all local tribes, now, get that manufacturing going ... or maybe better get some farming going first.

The thing NOT on the list keeping Texas for Texans? Fresh water.
Getch'yer global warming going and it looks like the place to be is on the upslope (west) of the Rockies. Things you didn't learn in school but should have?: What 'continental divide' means.
On one side rivers flow into the Pacific Ocean. On the other side rivers flow into toxic Superfund lowland pools ... oops, there is no 'Superfund'ing.

'What can I buy for a 1-dollar Federal Reserve Note?' oops, there is no Federal Reserve ....

- -

But seriously on-topic, folks. (First, forget Sarah Palinpuke, everyone else has.) All the talk about D's and R's, red-State / blue-State, Obama and anti-Obama, or majority party / minority 'NO' party -- it's all devalued worthless inconsequential blabber nonsense because of 2 things:

The BIG 1.) All touch-the-TV votes don't count. The computer programming has rigged the vote tally everywhere that there is 'electronic voting.' Which is everywhere except Oregon (and Washington if it gets vote-by-mail with all paper ballots ... but it is using electronic voting this time to decide if it goes to all-paper ballots next time ... hmmmm).

The Manager of computer programming decides months in advance who the winner of the national election is going to be, before the D's and R's have their 'nominating' Conventions! Gosh, who could that 'Manager' of computer programming be?

google agog and ye shall find. The rigged electronic voting machines is the story that the 'Free & fiercely Independent' Press dares not speak of, and hasn't, on either 'polarized' side -- whether MSM wimps or FUXNews fascists.
However, there are some confessed and some convicted small-fish perps who played parts in the Heist All Votes of Americans (H.A.V.A.) treason, and who are now in jail. There is their testimony, and there is court records, and all sorts of prosecution discovery and documents, and there is nothing in massmedia about it.
Continuous coverage of the story is almost exclusively in two websites. Bev Harris's Black Box Voting,
BlackBoxVoting.ORG/
and Brad Friedman's Brad Blog,
www.BradBlog.COM/
On the latter, for example, (and speaking of Texas), did you know? / have you heard?
Fire Destroys All 10,000 E-Vote Machines in Houston, Harris County, TX - Update: Accident or Arson? Paper or Plastic?, By Brad Friedman, 8/27/2010. Here:
http://www.bradblog.com/?p=8017

So, anyway, go vote if it makes you feel any better. Or, hang around on internet blogs arguing your best persuasions to get others to vote the way you like, if that does it for you.
But REALLY, in REALITY, (except in Oregon or where voting absentee tangible-paper ballots), it's all devalued worthless inconsequential blabber. Since the 'competing' names are already picked and the 'final score' is already counted, the people who plan such things don't wait until the last minute, twenty-twelve will be here before you know it. I mean, it's here now. So what's to argue?

And second, is Number 2.) Obama was CIA-bred CIA-groomed and CIA-sponsored from childhood, before or no later than age 2, to be CIA-allegiant. Obama is one of perhaps a couple hundred human 'mind-control life experiments' conducted across the years from the '60s, (after JFK was 'removed'), onward. This is the 'Manchurian Candidate' plotline you've heard about but never imagined somehow someone somewhere could-or-would actually TRY IT. (Riffing on the CIA motto: Any thing. Any where. Any time. Y'suppose there's a company in the Yellow Pages advertising like that?)

The 'plot' (plan) was, (and isn't it always, with that group?), start multiple 'candidates' and (40?) years later see which one(s) are still in the game, withstanding. Weed out the weak and laggards, over time, the ones where the psychological programming didn't 'take'. And see who's left.

I mean, didn't Obama come out of nowhere? Nobody ever heard of him, he never did nothing, (not even military record ... hmmmmm), stands up and gives a great speech 'performance' at the 2004 D. Convention and presto!, he's President of the United States of America ruling the World. WTF?

(For that matter, Palin: WTF? Or rather, WTP? Where's The Pregnancy? Sara did NOT give birth in 2008. Conclusively NOT! Gosh, it seems so long ago, it's so easy to forget. Hey, did you see Bristol 'Dancing With the Stars'? Tanned, rested, and hottie. Hard to think she was/wasnot in high school only a couple years ago ....)

Anyway, for the sake of open-mindedness, consider for a moment What if Obama is an animatronic speaker on the outside and a pre-fab'ed military-industrial complexity on the inside? Who knew? (FWIW, his astrology chart consents in such an intrigue.) For the 'disappointed' Dems who voted for him, (neverminding that votes are not truly tallied anymore, results are pre-fabricated), understanding he's a neo-POTUS in disguise explains everything about his non-Democratic behavior switcheroo after he got in office. For the violently vitriolic racist Repubs hammering on him, none of it matters, (worry not, his handlers have him bubble-wrapped ... until such time as they choose the fault of 'bad intelligence'), and it turns out he's one of their own rightwing kind! Besides, the rightwing hate and animosity have to be indelibly established in the public's mind and view, in order to preclude any questioning reasonable doubt of some future scape-goating (frame job) of the rightwing and its power-climbers coming to rival the power (maybe reveal the plans) of the 'Full-Spectrum Dominance' clique. So: 'They' throw Obama under the bus (at a certain time -- after all, he knows EVERYthing). Then 'they' say, "the R's did it." Then the good D-Americans annihilate the R's. And the R's in retaliation annihilate the D's. Then the adults, 'they' (have to, are begged by we-the-people to) step in and 'restore order' according to their 'order' of things. Mission accomplished ... and 'they' don't need no stinking 'elected Congress' badges of oversight.

Or however the Master Plan shakes out. It's anybody's guess. But start with considering that Obama could be a 'plant.' In office, 'infiltrated behind enemy lines.' A friggin' CIA mole in the USGov't corridors of 'the people's business.'
Must have an imagination as tall as World Domination Aims to ride this ride and play this game. Yes, it is the Grand Design (or Grand Illusion), as some great scheme of things for the Crown of Creation, on Brezinski's 'Global Geopolitical Chessboard.' But there are players there, and how would they talk that way if they didn't think that way. Yes, it is an overlarge long-playing Big Picture to wrap your mind around, and if it doesn't fit, toss it off.

And to close, here's the link to the backstory material, in evidence, substantiating the very idea of the possibility of Obama being 'the' Manchurian Candidate. Be sure to point out any factual errors you see in reading.

http://www.thomhartmann.com/users/wm/blog/2010/09/suppressed-evidence-showing-cia-indoctrination-obama

It is a lot of reading, unlikely for some to start let alone to finish, nevermind grasp in comprehension.
If nothing else let it set a reverse challenge to the mad 'Max' lies (upthread) about Reading Comprehension capacity, presenting a scope and depth of reality bigger than blue-sky Texas, to the 'Max' ... and beyond belief in reading ... so far in fact that a quitter can only stop and slander the writer.

.

Um, methinks a little clean-out of the pipes is warranted, Tenskatawa. I was following everything until you mentioned that infinitely execrable practice- ASTROLOGY....

Maybe a handler would help?