Morales elaborated on that by calling for an end to "unbridled industrial development, extraction of natural resources, excessive consumption of goods and accumulation of waste."

ahh. his secret agenda revealed. why does he hate America?

According to a 2006 study by the Heartland Institute, free enterprise does more to protect the environment than state intervention.

after that sentence, i knew i could stop reading.

Shouldn't be aspire to be more than a country of economic army ants and cultural dung beetles?

after that sentence, i knew i could stop reading

Read it and weep. When you bring it down to cases, the City of Portland is the biggest polluter of the Willamette River. Has been for decades.

Too bad you didn't read the rest of the article Eco. You would have found how badly Russia, China and all the other socialist countries have polluted the ecosystem.

The socialist enclave of Portland has done a bang up job with the environment. I guess they should be proud they're the region's worst polluter.

You the real sad thing is that people read the IBD and believe that crap. Environmentalists don't want to destroy capitalism they just want it to pay the full cost of it's activities.

Greg C

When you bring it down to cases, the City of Portland is the biggest polluter of the Willamette River. Has been for decades.

who is the "City of Portland", if not us?

Too bad you didn't read the rest of the article Eco. You would have found how badly Russia, China and all the other socialist countries have polluted the ecosystem.

countries don't pollute. "China" doesn't pollute. people pollute.

it's time for us to stop using the government as a proxy for our mistakes, dear readers.

and especially stop using them as a proxy for our self-esteem.

The socialist enclave of Portland has done a bang up job with the environment. I guess they should be proud they're the region's worst polluter.

again, I ask: who is "they"?

don't you live in Portland, Chris? if you do, then congratulations--I guess you're a Socialist.

if you don't--then what's the pollution like in *your* area?

or does this mysterious, amorphous "enclave" exist somewhere in the Southeast part of an imagination?

The claim that its goal of sustainablity is to protect the environment for the sake of mankind is a Big Lie. Its goal is to protect nature, not for man, but from man--to preserve an untouched environment as an end in itself, no matter what cost or hardship that imposes on human beings.

Greg:

Can we expect government to do the same? I know many people who wish government would pay the full cost of its activities. Apparently, the check's in the mail.

Its goal is to protect nature, not for man, but from man--to preserve an untouched environment as an end in itself, no matter what cost or hardship that imposes on human beings.

so, protecting nature is good unless you want to extract its resources, then that protection is a hardship?

John, what happens when there is no nature left to protect? what do you blame then for the "hardship" of not enough exploitable resources?

Eco, I have been to China, big State run factorys blowing Coal. I got to take a crap in a hole, locals said State wont pay for sewer.

countries don't pollute. "China" doesn't pollute. people pollute.

Charlton Heston is spinning in His grave to hear you paraphrase that NRA mantra, eco.

Sorry, I capitalized His - it's an affectation I have.

oops!... i did it again!

sorry, Britney

"John, what happens when there is no nature left to protect?"

The ecosystem implodes and there's a mass die off of animal life. It has happened many time before and will happen again.

What, you think man is some alien being, Eco? Sent down from other planets to overpopulate and destroy nature? Hate to break it to you, but man is never going to destroy the planet.

BTW, I find it highly hypocritical of Portland to ask folks to disconnect downspouts, all the while their sewage system pours waste into the Willamette due to years of neglect and mismanagement.

You really think their density mandates helps run-off?

Portland's irresponsible, socialist policies are a construct of their own making, not mine or most citizens.

Sounds like a bad rehash of the "tragedy of the commons." Garrett Hardin has had it right all along. "Pure" capitalism will fail at the environment because environmental costs can be externalized; as a result, the "public" suffers, while the individual profits.

State-controlled systems fail as well because they are operated for the benefit of "the state" (which, as evidenced by the treatment of folks in Russia and China, does not include everyone).

And, while I have not read the Heartland Institutes's report, I would imagine that its definition of "free enterprise" probably allows governmental regulation (i.e. the U.S. as an example of "free enterprise").

Environmental costs can only be forced back on their originators through governmental intervention; capitalism fails because it lacks this governmental intervention, while state control fails because no state punishes itself. Could the solution lie in the middle between the rhetoric? Sadly, given the state of environmental politics, I doubt we'll figure it out because we're all completely screwed.

Charlton Heston is spinning in His grave to hear you paraphrase that NRA mantra, eco.

what's the NRA got to do with sustainability?

The ecosystem implodes and there's a mass die off of animal life. It has happened many time before and will happen again.

well, then, party on!

Hate to break it to you, but man is never going to destroy the planet.

prove it.

You really think their density mandates helps run-off?

no. it makes it worse.

Portland's irresponsible, socialist policies are a construct of their own making, not mine or most citizens.

i agree. downspout disconnection is so totally Socialist.

"prove it."

The earth has had much worse than Man....

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/planetearth/extinction_sidebar_000907.html

BTW, I'm not advocating using up all of the earth's resources, I just think greenies are taking things way too far. Almost all developed countries have a negative replacement rate -- immigration of 2nd and 3rd world countries are the reason for their continued growth. And let's not kid ourselves, over-population *is* the only cause of consumption and pollution.

As the world becomes more developed, hopefully there will be an equilibrium between humans and nature. At least in the geologic short term, which is longer than any human can possibly conceive.

More likely however, a super-virus or comet will halve the population.

Ha ha ha. I couldn't wait for the closet communist to go crazy over this one. It's OK, though, you can buy T-Shirts emblazoned with the images of the worst mass-murderers, thugs, and champions of the almighty, pollution-belching State this world has ever known at any shopping mall...capitalism at it's most absurd.

The earth has had much worse than Man....

sorry, man. mankind in the last century has already been directly responsible for more species extinction than any of those. and it's getting worse.

and I'm confused--humans weren't around for any of the disasters listed on that page. so--how does that prove mankind can't destroy the planet?

I'm not advocating using up all of the earth's resources, I just think greenies are taking things way too far.

how much of the earth's resources *are* you advocating using up, then?

And let's not kid ourselves, over-population *is* the only cause of consumption and pollution.

so, you're saying America has a negative replacement rate, buoyed only by poor immigrants--but yet those poor immigrants are responsible for over consumption?

dude. please. 15% of Americans hold and spend nearly 100% of total private wealth. those immigrants amount to chump change.

i agree. downspout disconnection is so totally Socialist.

why capitalize Socialist? i'm confused.

what's the NRA got to do with sustainability?

It's a joke, son - irony, if you please - wasted, I see.

But, since you ask...

NRA members will be the ones with the guns forcing your followers to "sustain" their labor or be shot.

Wake up.

It's a joke, son - irony, if you please - wasted, I see.

that's not irony, son. irony's when you use words to say the opposite of what they literally mean. i think the word you're looking for is sarcasm.

NRA members will be the ones with the guns forcing your followers to "sustain" their labor or be shot.

i have followers? cool.

Newt Gingrich said it best last night in a show about Global Warming: liberals insist on pain (perhaps going too far in addressing the problem), and conservatives insist on avoidance (perhaps going too far in ignoring the problem). I'd never heard such a great, concise insight on the topic before! He was essentially admitting that conservatives are just afraid.

Well hell Eco, let's just sell all our homes, live in a commune, eat our ration of bean curd and roots and give all our "income" to our sustainability overlords (who know better than the rest of us serfs).

"Cuz I guarantee, that's the only way to get us greedy Americans to make life equal for the rest of the planet.

Well hell Eco, let's just sell all our homes, live in a commune, eat our ration of bean curd and roots and give all our "income" to our sustainability overlords (who know better than the rest of us serfs).

we are our own sustainability overlords. it's up to us, Chris.

Really Eco, what's your carbon footprint? Why are using that computer? You know, the massive network than runs the internet runs on electricity, not to mention the resources and pollution created to manufacture it.

Probably time to give all that up.

Chris, you are the master of "hey, new topic, meaning i'm going to talk about you personally."

i thought we were talking about the compatibility of sustainability and capitalism?

onward.

You we're the one who who posited that *we* are the sustainability overlords, Eco.

I guess *we* includes everyone but you.

I guess *we* includes everyone but you.

no, Chris. it means you get to be your own sustainability overlord--not mine.

wasn't that what you complained about--somebody else being your sustainability overlord?

and if i'm an overlord, do i get a cape?

bottom line: there are too many people on this planet.

that's not irony, son. irony's when you use words to say the opposite of what they literally mean. i think the word you're looking for is sarcasm.

When you're older and, presumably, wiser you can correct my use of the term irony, son.

When I employ sarcasm in a comment, you'll know it. The beauty of irony is that often its intended target doesn't.

what's the NRA got to do with sustainability?

QED

i have followers? cool.

Both of them are having second thoughts, though.

When you're older and, presumably, wiser you can correct my use of the term irony, son.

and when you're wiser, you'll notice that the very first definition at your link is what I said. now, you done puttin' on airs, son?

When I employ sarcasm in a comment, you'll know it. The beauty of irony is that often its intended target doesn't.

i know exactly what you mean.

Read it and weep. When you bring it down to cases, the City of Portland is the biggest polluter of the Willamette River. Has been for decades.

The catch is, that the "City of Portland" = you and me.

That's right, a city is the sum total of its residents! Amazing concept. So stop polluting, people. What's that? You're too cheap to install composting toilets and gardens to clean your roof and driveway runoff?

I think it would be funny if the EPA sued each individual property tax owner in Portland. Divide it up for a nice $3 million or so... they could make a lot of money while saving the environment!

Anyways, if you're going to rant on capitalism... anyone here go shopping recently? How about working - anyone receive a paycheck from a private company?

hypocrites