"sense of the Senate"

There's a whopper of a contradiction in terms.

on a related note, I'd like to see Columbia University's president answer the questions posed in this letter from Iranian academics:

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/09/26/4124/

Ron good. Hillary bad.

Three and four were removed from what ultimately was voted on.

Eco, it seemed like the questions the Iranian academics came up with were a cheap way of distracting from the Iranian president's disastrous comments at Columbia.

Columbian students and faculty confronted the highest elected member of the Iranian government with questions about the country's treatment of its own citizens and the country's foreign policy. That seems appropriate because the Iranian government has direct control over those issues.

The questions of the Iranian academics were, on the other hand, not related at all to the job of running a university (with the exception for the first question). Unlike Ahmadinejad, Bollinger has no responsibility or control over U.S. foreign policy today, let along 40 years ago.

Three and four were removed from what ultimately was voted on.

Well, there you go. I got the amendment text at the end of this page, beginning of next.

I can't source this at the moment but I remember reading the original #5 is the big one because it allows an invasion without further congressional approval.

Vote for Hillary, and this can go on for another 10 years.

That Columbia U. event seems like such a setup. Despite all this freedom of speech talk, citizens of other countries would never be able to grill our president, and criticize him to his face, the way it was done to the Iranian leader.

In fact even we American citizens can't do that with our own president, to his face. People are thrown out of his audience if they criticize his policies in word, or on their clothes.

What an extraordinary event it was, at Columbia U.

LC, you haven't been paying attention. Bush is criticized every day in the media and in the liberal controlled house and senate. He is protested everywhere he goes, including PDX. The Iranian leader was grilled because the liberal New York legislators were talking about withholding state funding because even they were outraged he was invited to speak at Columbia. Kind of like when the PDX school board wouldn't let military recruiters at the high schools until the government said no recruiters, no federal money. BTW, Columbia has denied speaking rights to several conservative groups with no consequences at all. Funny how money gets the attention of you libs.

Bush is criticized every day

Richard, you are missing (choosing to miss?) the point. The point is the opportunity to confront.

Columbian students and faculty confronted the highest elected member of the Iranian government with questions about the country's treatment of its own citizens and the country's foreign policy. That seems appropriate because the Iranian government has direct control over those issues.

publicly berating a world leader for ten full minutes before you demand that he answer questions is a "discussion"?

now, i'll wait for Bollinger's public ten-minute berating of President Bush's well-documented foreign policy atrocities. think Bush will attend?

Yeah Richard, I wrote "to his face" twice in my post. Try that with Bush. The goons will grab you and drag you out of the room before you can finish your sentence.

I swear to Goddess Media of the nine Muses that certain people, R/s for instance, must imagine that their audience thinks they sound so conversant, and thinks they got a true clue, when they parrot LIARS. The comment is a parrotcopy of LIARS Larson broadcast b.s.

Here's commentary by a tolerant fellow, (too tolerant, sometimes, for my taste), who looked long to find some way to hear reason in Bollinger's slur-speech, but ultimately could only see the obvious self-defamation spoken.

Altercation, by Eric Alterman, Wed, Sep 26, 2007
You've got a lot of nerve to say you are my friend ...

It's taken me a few days to make up my mind about Lee Bollinger's attack/introduction to Mr. Unpronounceable's Columbia speech. On the one hand, I admire Bollinger quite a bit. On the same hand, everything he said was true. And also on the same hand, while I believe deeply in the value of civil discourse in the age of Rush and O'Reilly, I also believe that civility is easily and all-together too frequently exploited for nefarious and frequently murderous purposes and sometimes needs to be cast aside.

But having watched the TPM-posted video of Bollinger's introduction, I think in this case it demonstrated a kind of boorishness and self-satisfaction that the rest of the world finds so annoying -- and frequently dangerous in Americans -- and represented a significant lapse of judgment on the part of Bollinger. At the end of the event, Bollinger congratulated himself and the Columbia community by once again criticizing the speaker ....

I worry that this happened because of the sustained campaign against Columbia by right-wing American Jews who seek to shut down academic discussion of the Palestinian question because they cannot control it. The insane focus on Columbia in The New York Sun is a real pain in the neck for Columbia and no doubt interferes with its fundraising. [Note: Zilch to do with NY legislature.] It is largely without intellectual merit -- the idea that it is difficult to assert one's Jewishness at Columbia University in the city of New York is among the most absurd notions to be found anywhere in American political discourse ....

But anyway, the petty rightist nazi Republican radicals with their knickers in a twist for fearing the truth that free speech tells about them; and, (on topic, parenthetically), the craven cowardly deathly fearful Senators who give the least answer possible when asked what they can do for this country, ("zero"); seem all intent to suppress and hide from humankind their complicity -- with you and me and Uncle Sam who we let spend our taxes in secrecy -- culpable in the US's outlaw criminality by our rogue agency of murder and powermad mayhem, and the life of Iran killed by us, there, then, and here: en.Wikipedia.ORG /wiki/ Operation_Ajax

"Funny how money gets the attention of you libs."

Um, I missed this part of your post the first time around, Richard. What exactly do you mean? What's money got to do with it? I didn't mention money, nor did I think about it. Maybe I missed it, is money involved here? And I guess your labeling me with the "you libs" comment. Just for the record, I would never do that to you. You're a man with a mind of your own, right?

I can't find an email link on your page so I send this out to the broader Bojack community. Interesting news in light of the fact that we are about to be taken into another war because we have lost control of our leaders.

http://masterpeace.wordpress.com/2007/09/26/oregon-district-judge-slams-usa-patriot-act/

you all miss the point...stop the madness.
Stop the hate -stop the killing. STOP.

This, to me, is really scary and the Democrats in the Senate are wretched excuses for political leaders. Why are they so tone deaf to the American public?

I knew Lee Bollinger at the University of Oregon (he was student body vice president). Nice guy, in a liberal, earnest frat boy way.

Yes. Stop the madness.

As someone who lived through the 1960s, I cannot believe that we are making Vietnam-war-type decisions.

As a life-long registered Democrat, I cannot believe how worthless most of them are in the House and Senate.

As a former Marine, I can't believe we are letting chicken-hawks lead us into wars.

As an American, I cannot believe we are being dragged into a religious war that should not be our business.

To think I actually believed the Election of 2006 would prevent another Iraq-style fiasco - at the very least - and maybe even end that disaster. Watching us repeat the movie all over again using virtually the same script is beyond heartbreaking. I can hear individual cells in my brain beginning to pop. I would say we already know the ending to this next horrific sequel, but as Iraq proved, the movie doesn't end. It just goes on forever.

More of us must come to recognize more seriously and deeply the meaning of the words that American democracy is under deliberate attack, the whole 200-plus-year 'experiment,' the whole shebang we complacently and casually call 'liberty' and 'land of the free,' and some people absolutely drunk with power, power-crazed, powermad, insane really, intend by all their wherewithal and cognizance to make themselves and their interests totalitarian dictators, emperors of the world as they really truly 'think' of it. No sh*t.

In our modest mundane everyday lives, we simply lack the grasp of thinking on such a scale. The insane ones don't -- their every conscious waking hour is involved in the thoughts. It, and they, are very deadly serious. They mass-murdered 3000 people in Nine Eleven Op to set this up to get this far -- and millions before, and murdered millions since -- and they are not going to be reached or reformed by a flood of emails, or calls to Congress, or a bunch of belly-aching.

Serious honest-to-God mass murderers, the faces you see on TV who seem like 'ordinary folks' -- I mean Kissinger and GHWBush and Cheney and Rumsfeld and Rice and Gonzales, (Junior is sooo out-of-it), and Liebermann and all the rest and Pelosi and all the rest and your favorite 'cute' 'loveable' TV 'personalities' -- all are up to their necks and their life's total mortal soul in murder and death, bloody serious as Hitler and Napoleon and Genghis Kahn and any of the powerlusting monsters you have ever heard of, except dressed in suits and ties and modern fashions, every bit as sick in the head as every wild-eyed meth addict you ever suffered to witness in person, and these powerlusters mean full force to end our lives. Really, no shit, open your effing eyes, wake up and smell the bloodshed. Ours.

You cannot grab a gun and go 'get' the enemy. The historic Age of ammo and arms is way totally over. The greatest power that we have -- and it is plenty enough and supreme in force over everything else -- is our communication with each other. (It just not is bang bang action-packed heart-pounding thrill adventure like a movie. It's quiet like a book and a sense of purpose.)

Get serious, get smart, get brutal. Arrest and imprison Liars Larson, Rash Lamebrain, Bill O'Liar -- that's a start -- traitors each of them, subverters and destroyers of humankindness, civilized decency, knowledge and understanding -- absolutely mentally ill sicko perverts in the brain. Subhuman. Retards. Don't celebrate them and their poison information. Shun them. Get smart. Stop watching it. Stop listening to it. Stop giving them your money for their lies.

Fight the fight right here in River City. On your street. On my street. Home by home, person by person. The power is that we can talk together, and know what we must do and how to live. Period.

Senators and Congresspersons are criminals. No different from OJ Simpson. Fully guilty murderers. I'm naming the familiar names we all voted for. I named them on BlueOregon and got blacklisted and gagged -- to stop our power when we talk together. Wait'll martial law comes swat team down Kari Chisholm's street and he faces rifle barrels bashing in his door, like Brandon Mayfield faced, and the blood drains from his face and he thinks oh holy jeezus effing cow I didn't know what serious really meant.

Naomi Wolf's Call to Patriots -- Today's Echoes of Goebbels, and the Fragility of Liberty, Tue, 09/25/2007, A BUZZFLASH INTERVIEW. Democracies take nurturing. They're easy to pull down. The Founders understood that. It's a very dangerous time. -- Naomi Wolf, Author, The End of America: Letter of Warning to a Young Patriot

I am getting better and better at this! I can now identify Tenskawata posts by the first sentence and skip it entirely, saving me all the time that would otherwise be devoted to reading a paragraph or more of incomprehensible gobbledegook!

Incomprehensible gobbledegook...,
Jack reel in Tenskawata. I cant make heads or tails on what he is trying to get across,ever.

I cant make heads or tails on what he is trying to get across,ever.

Maybe Tenskwatawa isn't the most articulate writer, but the message seems clear enough to me: we're screwed. Not much different from what Bill McDonald is saying, except for the conspiracy angle and the temperature.

As an American, I cannot believe we are being dragged into a religious war that should not be our business.

Bill, are you saying our government made this a religious war? Because I dont see anyone telling me I have to convert to Christianity. But even Osama's last message said the way to peace in these conflicts is for the West to convert to Islam.

Re: Tensk. There could be a time in the not so distant future when we all wonder why we didn't write like that.
"American democracy is under deliberate attack."

Tensk sees a nation asleep and I think he's 100% right on that. That's why his comments read like someone yelling at us to wake up.

To me, Tensk's comments read like a madman in a straight jacket. 9/11 was a setup. Riiiiiiiight. Lars Larson, Bill O'Reilly and Rush Limbaugh should be imprisoned. So much for freedom of speech and of the press. Every congressman and senator is a murderer. Sure. Republicans are nazis. Jews being mad at Columbia for allowing what's-his-name to speak is soley because of the Palestinian issue, and has nothing to do with the fact that he's declared the Holocaust as a fiction and states that his fervent wish is to wipe Isreal off the map. Whatever.

Fireback is a commendation. Injured reply is not given against a fool's words, which are harmless. Dispute in reply (against educating words) reveals whose ox is being gored, self-indicts the one taking advantage by exploiting ignorants, and losing that lifeblood when victims get news and get smart.

Meanwhile -- odd coincidence -- names off the top of my head one night, the same day go drowning down in their own slimey crimes.
# Bill O'Lie said every day this week, "I am not a racist," after his racist hatetalk was reported last week. (Ref: MediaMatters.ORG ) Jeez, his programming and all of FUXnews is supremacist-racist, and kept on the air, infecting weakminded rightist feardeath-and-fearme, by a dime of each dollar going to cable TV operators no matter whether the subscriber watches or not.

# Rash Lamebrain lost it in one big fat idiot hate slur: September 26 ... called service members who advocate U.S. withdrawal from Iraq "phony soldiers." Causing headline news to get smart by: Iraq War Vet to Limbaugh: "[T]ell that to my face" -- "My challenge to you, then, is to have me [Jon Soltz] on the show and say all of this again, right to the face of someone who served in Iraq. I'll come on any day, any time. Not only will I once again explain why your comments were so wrong, but I will completely school you on why your refusal to seek a way out of Iraq is only aiding al Qaeda and crippling American security."

And today,# LIARS L. went wordy ballistic attacking Mayfield and hating Court justice. LIARS obviously is getting unglued as news goes around he's a traitor, liar, and wannabe dictator. Hey, his mind-programmed parrots can mute some dispute, and silently go directly do business rewarding the sponsors who pay him to broadcast public hate: Kuni BMW and Jim Fisher Volvo, or Providence-St.Vincent body rehab'ers.

Massmind media chokes on its own propaganda; as more clear spoken wisdom spreads out the alarm calling us to think and to live true to democracy's standard: This Coup and The Next One, by Daniel Ellsberg, September 27, 2007

I think nothing has higher priority than averting an attack on Iran, which I think will be accompanied by a further change in our way of governing here that in effect will convert us into what I would call a police state.
...
The president is clearly violating that oath, of course. Everybody under him who understands what is going on and there are myriad, are violating their oaths. They can stop doing that. And that’s the standard that I think we should be asking of people.
...
I think we’ve got to somehow get home to them [in Congress] that this is the time for them to uphold the oath, to preserve the Constitution, which is worth struggling for in part because it’s only with the power that the Constitution gives Congress responding to the public, only with that can we protect the world from madmen in power in the White House who intend an attack on Iran.
...
That has to change. And it’s the example of people like those up here who might bring home to our representatives that they as humans and as citizens have the power to do likewise and to find in themselves the courage to protect this country and protect the world. Thank you. -- Daniel Ellsberg was put on trial in 1973 for leaking the Pentagon Papers, but the case was dismissed after four months because of government misconduct.
---
At the link there are Commments, you are free to add yours, (for now). Here's one, (after I x'ed out some letters):
mahadeva September 27th, 2007 3:36 pm
THIS IS IT
IT IS NOT A FxxxING GAME ANYMORE
WHAT WE SEE AROUND US WILL NOT LAST MUCH LONGER
We are on the edge of death as a species
The USA is about the bring about the end of this experiement known as humanity
in an explosion of greed
Fxxx ISREAL
I am sorry, but if you are destoying millions, Fxxx YOUR RELIGION -IT IS A TRIBAL RACSIST RELGION BASED ON LIES
Fxxx CAPITOLISM
I CALL on whoever out that is aware to start to organize and get something going
becuase the writing is on the wall

he's declared the Holocaust as a fiction

can anybody point me to a direct quote from Ahmadinejad where he declares the Holacaust a fiction, lie, etc., or called for the physical destruction of Israel?

i can't seem to find one.

i did find this, though, debunking the poor translation from a few years ago:

http://www.counterpunch.org/tilley08282006.html

Are you still be trying to connect with MetroFi, ECOhuman?

Or you aren't looking too hard...Here's the results of my 2 minutes of research...
That was easy

Even the German Press have called him out

From CNN

Here's a few more:
Here's the most recent interview with Brian WilliamsWhere the self proclaimed "Academic" suggests that the jews didn't suffer anymore than the other 60 million non-combatants who died in the war.

Maybe you should dig a little deeper.

Eco-

The real irony? The most watched prime-time tv program in Iran right now is a mini-series on the Holocaust. The show is based on true stories of the Iranian embassy in Paris smuggling out Jews to save them.

http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB118912609718220156.html

Eco, C'MON ALREADY, are you kidding me? I've seen so many statements from him where he's declared the Holocaust as untrue (from a variety of sources) that I can't believe that you've never read one.

Are you being honest? If you pay any attention to the Middle East whatsoever, there's NO WAY you could have missed these sort of statements from him. You're obviously not a dumbass, so I don't buy your proclaimed ignorance of him saying such things.

For God's sake, while he was here in America, he called the Holocaust a "theory". What an insult to so many murdered Jews!!!

As far as Tensk goes, I LOVE your posts, but you pretty much proved my point with your last one....

To Bill McDonald - I honestly feel your pain when you wrote "Watching us repeat the movie all over again using virtually the same script is beyond heartbreaking."

That's why "libs" in Portland should stop bashing R's all the time as being oh-so-evil. Because the D's are just as bad. Our 2-party system is killing this country. Bill, you and I will disagree on the war (and many other things, I believe)but know this - as they are starting to envision themselves in the Oval Office, the front running D candidates are already backing off their pledges to stop the war. Which tells us all we need to know about American politics.

Again - the 2-party system is killing this country.

That's why I HATE people who say, "R's are evil" or "D's are evil". Both parties are corrupt and dishonest beyond belief.

Eco, C'MON ALREADY, are you kidding me? I've seen so many statements from him where he's declared the Holocaust as untrue (from a variety of sources) that I can't believe that you've never read one.

you didn't read the article i linked to, did you? having real discernment about "news" requires some thoughtfulness.

Are you being honest?

yes. are you doing your homework?

"You're obviously not a dumbass"

Ironic words.

The German Government were appalled by a letter he sent them in July, Suggesting the Holocaust was just Allied Propaganda

Here's the full text of Mahmoud's Ahmadinejad's letter, as translated by the Iranian News Agency...

Clearly, his comments are subject to exploitation/exaggertion by enemies and will be defended (or placed into friendlier translations/context) by his friends. That doesn't change the facts that he is an anti-semite and a holocaust denier.

The German Government were appalled by a letter he sent them in July, Suggesting the Holocaust was just Allied Propaganda

you really, *really* need to read the full text of the letter. again--like many, you're confusing the summary that news agencies give you with actual discernment.

seriously, man. read, and draw your own conclusions. the letter refers to "the Holacaust" and "the survivors of the Holacaust" several times. it's not a denial--not even close.

eco...c'mon.

The letter says quote:

"I have no intention of arguing about the Holocaust. But, does it not stand to reason that some victorious countries of World War II intended to create an alibi on the basis of which they could continue keeping the defeated nations of World War II indebted to them." [emphasis mine]

He is suggesting the holocaust was propaganda created by the allied forces...
So, ok. I guess technically you are right- he doesnt actually deny the holocaust. He just suggests it was a fabrication by the victors of the war.

Eco,

Don't let the facts get in the way of your dogma. Mahmoud GOOD, Israel BAD.

"I have no intention of arguing about the Holocaust. But, does it not stand to reason that some victorious countries of World War II intended to create an alibi on the basis of which they could continue keeping the defeated nations of World War II indebted to them." [emphasis mine]

He is suggesting the holocaust was propaganda created by the allied forces...
So, ok. I guess technically you are right- he doesnt actually deny the holocaust. He just suggests it was a fabrication by the victors of the war.---

Wow. He doesn't suggest it was a fabrication at all. He suggests it was USED for other objectives.

"I have no intention of arguing about the Holocaust. But, does it not stand to reason that some victorious countries of World War II intended to create an alibi on the basis of which they could continue keeping the defeated nations of World War II indebted to them." [emphasis mine]

emphasis yours. to me that and the rest of the quote do not say anything about the Holocaust being "an alibi." some simple English grammar would clarify that for you, even.

He is suggesting the holocaust was propaganda created by the allied forces

i don't read it that way at all. British experts don't either. most Germans don't either. most academics don't, both American and European.

you're making some enourmous assumptions, and insisting that your interpretation of one-sixth of a contextless speech denotes "Holocaust denial", while you ignore the parts where he refers (many times) the the results of the Holocaust and its survivors. you also don't seem to even acknowledge that you *are* making an interpretation.

i'm interested in the truth, as much as it exists, not taking the bit offered me by propoganda monkeys and running with it. there's a bigger picture here--there always is--and most don't want to deal with the discomfort and complexity. i don't blame them; sometimes i don't either.

for example:

In addition to the people of Germany, the peoples of the Middle East have also borne the brunt of the Holocaust. By raising the necessity of settling the survivors of the Holocaust in the land of Palestine, they have created a permanent threat in the Middle East in order to rob the people of the region of the opportunities to achieve progress.

how could Ahmadinejad both "deny the Holocaust" and discuss in detail the survivors of the Holocaust and the "brunt of the Holocaust"?

again, i'm not seeing evidence that folks gave the translation a thoughtful, complete read.

Eco, Im curious....what does "intended to create an alibi" mean to you then?

Eco, Im curious....what does "intended to create an alibi" mean to you then?

the letter is long, makes many points, and is a translation from Farsi.

to start, "alibi" essentially means "excuse", not "myth". in other words, calling the use of the Holocaust an "alibi" for doing other things does not mean "the Holocaust is a myth"--it means the Holocaust is being used as an excuse.

by most readings, the "intended to create an alibi" phrase refers to the idea that WW II victors used the results of the Holocaust as an alibi--an excuse--to settle survivors and other Jews in Israel to forcibly change the structure of the Middle East.

Ahmadinejad argues that it's insincere to decry the Holocaust while forcibly (and violently) creating a new Middle Eastern nation/state to resettle the Holocaust survivors and their ethnic counterparts.

none of this or the rest of the letter sounds like "The Holocaust is a Myth" to me.

that's my take on it.

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has made no secret of his disdain for the State of Israel and he (and the Islamic Republic of Iran) have supplied military hardware and financial support to the various anti-zionist movements (including Hezbullah, the Syrians, and Hamas). Iranian support includes the provision of tactictal missiles, anti-tank weapons, and explosives/small arms used to kill Israeli civilians as well as U.S. and Israeli soldiers.

Iran's opposition to the State of Israel is not just a question of semantics. It is much more lethal and violent than holocaust denial. I'm surprised that Ecohuman could be so naive, because his postings sound better researched than most anti-zionists who rise to the defense of the Islamic Republic of Iran.

I believe that Bush will initiate an air campaign against Iran before May of 2008 because he knows that his successor will lack the political will to do so. Iran will respond by raining missiles on Israel and that will give the IDF a chance to occupy Syria and play a more active role in the demilitarization of Iran. Oil prices and world stock markets will move in opposite directions, but it would be far worse to wait until the Iranians go nuclear. It will be interesting to see how the U.N. and the Europeans respond.

I hope that war with Iran can be avoided, but they seem unwilling to back down.

none of this or the rest of the letter sounds like "The Holocaust is a Myth" to me.

Well, the way I see it, the key word here is "create". That makes it sound "made up". What the Nazis did to the Jews (and many others) was real. So sure, the Holocaust was (is?) used as an excuse for many things. But the allies didnt "create" anything.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

"It will be interesting to see how the U.N. and the Europeans respond."

Yes. It will be fascinating when communist China calls us on all our debt and Russia defends Iran by nuking the US.

That will make for some riveting History Channel footage, indeed.

Iran's opposition to the State of Israel is not just a question of semantics. It is much more lethal and violent than holocaust denial.

again, despite countless sources and explicit statements that accurately describe Ahmadinejad's dislike the the Zionist regime, not "The State of Israel", you're making the same old tired, innacurate point. the government, Zionism, the regime--not the state or the people.

but, something tells me you're going to continue to believe otherwise.

I hope that war with Iran can be avoided, but they seem unwilling to back down.

Posted by Mister Tee |

good lord, you just quoted Dick Cheney.

I'm surprised that Ecohuman could be so naive, because his postings sound better researched than most anti-zionists who rise to the defense of the Islamic Republic of Iran.

do you understand what Zionism *is*, exactly, and why other Middle Eastern sovereign nations ridicule it?

"good lord, you just quoted Dick Cheney."

That IS Dick Cheney. "Mister Tee" is his online psuedonym, like the CEO of Whole Foods.

Someone on Dick Cheney's payroll, at the very least.