What is it with shooting people armed with knives? Im a typically normal, law abiding person, but lately the local cops scare the crap outta me. And people say Bush is the one we need to watch for Gestapo-like tactics...
Its getting to the point that dying of "natural causes" can include police-induced lead poisoning around these parts.

I also dont get the thought process of taking out someone who is threating to kill themselves...
Besides, didnt voters sanction suicide a while back? Or is that only if the state says its ok?

What is it with these trigger-happy cops. My father has joked "Feeling suicidal, all the Portland Police". The shocking Tigard case makes this seriously not funny.

Nobody shot in Portland this time.

In close quarters, knives are actually more dangerous than guns. There is no need to draw and aim; simply waving the knife around a little can cut, cause the victim to instantly go into shock, and kill. There really isn't such thing as a minor knife cut/stab. Therefore, police consider them more dangerous than idiots brandishing guns - and treat them as such.

As I learned while taking self-defense classes, there is only 1 way to truly defend against someone with a knife: run away. Unfortunately, since the police don't really get that option, their only other option is to kill.

Justin is correct. If you can't run away from a situation your only remaining option is to make it worse. This is true for everything from writer's block to foreign policy.

I wouldn't argue that knives aren't dangerous, but as I understand the Tigard situation, the guy had turned and was walking back towards his house when he was fatally shot in the back. Ouch. That seems a little... excessive...

Although, after a hearty discussion about it in a Civil Rights Litigation class earlier today, prospects for a successful claim by the family that the deceased civil rights were violated are slim. Still seems pretty obviously tragic, doesn't it?

Oops, I meant to say "the deceased's civil rights" -- although "deceased civil rights" might be a little more accurate...

"Feeling Suicidal? Call the Portland Police!" That's great...and appears to have become true, in several recent instances.

As for the guy in Tigard, he walked back towards his house with family indoors after threatening his family and he wouldn't respond to police....so they shot him.

So the cops needed to subdue a guy who was armed with a knife--er, isn't that the whole reason that they carry tasers?

We sure did spend a lot of media time last week showing outrage for the idiot cop who was victimizing women. I spent every minute of every article wondering where the outrage is for those that the police kill and they never really have to face up to it, esp. in Portland.

When I saw this in the paper, my first reaction was to wonder out loud if the Tigard Police carry Taser's. Taser's aren't fun for the person getting hit, but it's a lot better to get shocked into submission than getting shot in the back.

Dave said, "So the cops needed to subdue a guy who was armed with a knife--er, isn't that the whole reason that they carry tasers?"

If you were in such a situation, you would quickly realize that attempting to subdue a knife weilding excited young man with just a taser would be foolish and perhaps lethal. Do you expect the police to draw straws and say, "You lose. Go over and zap him while I cover you in case he starts to stab you?"

The article did say that the bean-bags were ineffective so I am curious what the toxicology report will have to say.

I worked with military police frequently on tactics and rules for the escalation of force to arrest suspects. For the skeptics on how police handle or react to someone acting violently with a knife, you may be surprised to learn that a person can cover a lot of ground with a knife before a person can draw and fire a pistol. It is usually assumed that the closest you can be to someone with a knife is 40'. If this occurs in a building/other restrictive area, it is dark, or there are by-standers, police do not have a lot of options. That is the reason police unholster their weapon and take it off "safe" when responding to such a situation.

Presuming the police can stay away safely while handling the situation, these suicide by cop situations are not the type of scenarios where a rational person is discussing their problems. Often times the person is either highly depressed or intoxicated and likely both. On the other side of the equation, almost all police have one overriding goal: return to their families safely. Situations tend to end horribly where one wants to die really badly and the other wants to live really badly: both tend to get their wish.

God knows police go into these situations often times like a bull in a china shop, and I really feel horrible for the kid and his family, but the Tigard police appear to have tried less than lethal means and only shot the kid as he was heading back into the house where there were family members. I am not sure what I would have done differently and the last thing I ever want to do is take another life.

My understanding-from the Oregonian's coverage-is that the family did not feel threatened by the young man, but called the police hoping they could help him. There is a quote from the Mom admitting naivete.

Do you expect the police to draw straws and say, "You lose. Go over and zap him while I cover you in case he starts to stab you?"

A taser isn't a cattle prod. It can be fired 35 feet from the target. The question remains, do Tigard police carry Tasers, and if so, why didn't they try that after bean bags failed?

Good catch Amanda....

Well, I don't know if they carry them or not, but I do know they don't go 35 feet. 21 feet is the maximum range, and you would have a very hard time getting a solid strike at that distance.

I always find it interesting how easy it is to play Monday morning quarterback. I'm prone to do it myself. The bottom line is that someone who is very agitated is running around with a deadly weapon. That's really all you know when you get on the scene. This person is not responding to you, and not affected by your less-lethal tool (beanbag). Now this person is taking that knife and running into a house where unarmed people are. So you have 2 seconds to make a decision. Say they don't shoot him, and he goes in the house and kills someone. Or all of them. Now the police are at fault for not protecting the family. Can you imagine that headline?

I'm not sure what the right choice was, because I wasn't there. This thing will be reviewed and re-enacted to death trying to improve the tactics. I do know that its much easier to place judgement on it when I'm sitting at my desk with time to ponder.

We can't compensate our police officers sufficiently to induce them to wrestle people with knives. YOU WOULDN'T DO IT, EITHER!

The police department should have provided them with some less than lethal alternative and training in dealing with the mentally unstable or intoxicated.

The best insurance you (or your kids) have against "suicide by cop" is to deal with mental health or substance abuse problems long before the Police Department is asked to respond. If that fails, we should educate our kids to always follow the police officer instructions. Failing that, more cops and/or more unstable/intoxicated citizens are going to die. If somebody is bent on getting shot (as the 18 year old in Tigard apparently was), law enforcement may have no safe alternative except deadly force.

Well, I don't know if they carry them or not, but I do know they don't go 35 feet. 21 feet is the maximum range, and you would have a very hard time getting a solid strike at that distance.

FWIW, the Taser Wikipedia entry says the maximum range is 30 feet. Presumably accuracy is reduced with distance, but still. When I think of the qualities I want in a cop, the main one is the ability to solve the problem at hand with the minimal use of force. Period.

The problem in this case was that the kid was running around outside, obviously drunk, with a knife, threatening to do damage. He needed to be dealt with, but he was as much a danger to himself as anyone else. Once again, the cops show up in this situation and go from a token non-lethal measure to maximum lethality. I'm sick of it. Deadly force should be employed as a last measure, not a second measure. Yet once again we'll see absolutely no action taken (as with the Gresham cop who ran a stop sign at 60 mph with no lights or siren, killed someone, and wasn't disciplined), and then we'll see this event repeat itself another dozen or times in the next few years. It's getting old, fast.

Dave,

So, what would you have done in that situation, knowing what you know? I hear lots of "I'm sick of it" and very little solutions. Do you let him run back into the house? Did you listen to the 911 tape? It's tragic.

And the cop in Gresham who had nothing happen to him? He was forced to resign. I guess you hadn't heard. No word on whether the tree that blocked the stop sign has been true billed or not.

Options:

1. No police. That way they can't show up and shoot people or do anything that other people might deem wrong. This is the only way to ensure that the police don't make a wrong decision. This also would put the onus on people to police themselves. However, vigilante justice can sometimes be worse than crime. (Do you want to live in a Portland without police?)

2. Status quo. The police will use their best judgment and they will make mistakes sometimes because they are human.

3. Pay police personnel more. You will get more competition for the police positions and the quality of police will increase. However, each individual may or may not make better decisions than the current force in each situation.

4. Increase the number of police officers. This won't help individuals make better decisions. The only thing this might help is that more police may be a deterrent to potential wrong-doers.

Any other options?

My father was a career cop, and his mentor, career lawman J. Leonard Speer, was called to a remote location (in Calipatria, CA) by a meth-addict's mother who was afraid he was going to harm her (she wouldn't give him any more drug money). Long story shot, the police officer responded, and tried to talk Omar (Scumbag) Deen into giving himself up. Instead, Scumbag Deen took the police officer's gun away from him during hand to hand combat, shot and killed Police Chief Speer, and killed his own mother.

No word as to whether or not a Taser was available to the dead officer. Perhaps Scumbag Deen can sue the city now that he's an orphan.

So, in the interest of protecting the family inside the house, the cops shoot at least four times TOWARD and INTO the house?

"The teenager's parents and relatives Sunday said in interviews the deputies' gunfire ripped through the house and into the teenager's 72-year-old grandmother's room, barely missing her.

"I could have lost my son and my mom," Hope Glenn said. She pointed out two bullet holes in the front door and two inside the grandmother's room as she numbly recounted Saturday's events."

Good call.

we should educate our kids to always follow the police officer instructions.

Does that include when they tell our wives and daughters to remove their bras so they can look for butterfly tatoos?

Madam Hatter:

Neither of us witnessed the Glenn shooting. It is irresponsible to suggest you know the use of force was reckless or unjustified.

Clearly, it is a tragedy when anybody is shot and killed. That doesn't mean the Police Officers acted recklessly.

The 911 Operator was clearly trying to segregate the family/friends from the distraught 18 year old: that was likely intended to reduce the possibility of their injury.

What if Luke ran in his house, and stabbed one or both of his parents? Should the Police Officers have taken that chance with the parent's lives?

I assume the parents called 911 knowing full well that the police may have to use force to disarm him. I also assume the Police Officers regret the loss of life: they are unlikely to forget the events of that night.

Your self-righteous sarcasm is duly noted.

My figure for the Taser range is from the manufacturer's web site.

The security officers at OHSU are armed with Tasers. Nobody likes to use them, but there have been instances where doing so has resulted in a safer situation for everyone including the target. I want to know whether Tigard police carry them, and also whether they receive adequate training for dealing with this type of situation. Portland police have a special unit, developed partly in response to the Nathan Thomas tragedy. For example, I know from 25 years of working in inpatient psychiatry, that yelling orders at a person in crisis is rarely effective, rather tends to escalate the situation.

Today's coverage in the O made it clear that it the mom was panicking when she dialed 911. But I think the questions Duin raises are good ones, especially that when Glenn turned toward his home, he may have perceived it as sanctuary.

I had a law school classmate who, in an earlier life, was a Multnomah County sheriff's deputy. She said that there was a "circle the wagons" mentality in the department and that members felt misunderstood by a hostile public. It sounds possible that cops' emotional problems prevent them from knowing how to handle those of other people.

I respect and appreciate the police, especially the officer who got there in about 2 minutes when my dad lost consciousness in a restaurant. But I think,as a society, we should stop deferring to them as super-human judges of situations and allow more public conversation (Monday morning quarterbacking, if you will). The lessons of the Lucas Glenn case are important to all parents and all who appreciate a rational free society, imho.

But I think the questions Duin raises are good ones, especially that when Glenn turned toward his home, he may have perceived it as sanctuary.

May being the operative word...how can they know that?

He also may have been moving to kill someone in his family or take a hostage. It was obvious from the 911 tape on the news that even the family wasnt sure what he was capable of.

I think this whole thing was sad, and I think shooting someone with a knife is a touchy issue. But just like everything else, if that kid had turned back and hurt someone, people would still be bitching about the police not doing anything to stop the problem.
They cant win.

Mister Tee

By the same token, what if one of the bullets had hit and killed grandma or one of his parents? Should the Police Officers have taken THAT chance with the parent's lives?

What a bogus argument to fret over the cops' potential liability for allowing this kid to kill his family (with his giant 3" knife) while never mentioning their liability for shooting the same family.

BTW - has a successful suit of either type been brought against any LE in Oregon?

Do you also ASSUME that these parents (or any parent) would call seeking HELP for their child, expecting the first responders to use LETHAL force?

And so, who are we supposed to call when a friend or loved one is in crisis and we don't want 'em gunned down?

Your authoritarian mentality is also duly noted.

Jon,

If it is about the police "winning' then isn't this a police state?

I do see your point, though; it does sound like a profoundly dysfunctional family and I imagine that mother will have to spend the rest of her life learning to live with the guilt.

p.s.

Since the kid had a 3" knife with a plastic blade, I would have liked to see the officers approach him and try to wrestle him down. But it seems we've really become a fear culture, acting to protect ourselves at all times from the worst that could happen.

I talked with a friend whose dad retired from the federal marshall's office who said he confirmed there was a mafia problem in Portland (not Chinese or Russian, but the good ole American Mob that taught the Nazis intimidation tactics), and that it was too endemic to get hold of. So, if you can't fight em, join em, I guess.

I am sorry, but I think the Washington County cops took the cowards' way out.

I swear I heard the mom say that the cops were only about 7 feet from the kid, so if they had tasers they should have been able to use them to solve the problem.

Cynthia:

I didn't find any reference to a "plastic blade" in the media coverage.

Perhaps you mean a plastic handle?

I believed the 9/11 hijackers demonstrated that the size/composition of the knife is immaterial if one is sufficiently motivated to kill.

At least there were no cats caught in the crossfire.

You're right, Mr. Tee, I did mean a plastic handle. I stand corrected on that.
It would be hard to convince me of a motivation to kill in this case, although someone might have been hurt if he got in the way, I suppose. I am hearing that officers should have tried to defuse the situation. That makes sense to me.
And, yes, I am glad no cats were caught in the crossfire, although that doesn't diminish the tragedy.

His mother said she felt threatened in her first sentence to the 911 operator. I'm not saying that justifies lethal force, but there is little doubt the kid was capable of causing bodily harm to others.

DISPATCH: 9-1-1 what's your emergency?

HOPE GLENN: I need the cops to my house immediately I have a son that is out of control busting out windows and has a knife and is threatening us.

According to the Oregonian's transcript, Mrs. Glenn also told the 9-1-1 operator, "He just keeps threatening to kill everybody. . . . " which suggests to me that, even if Mrs. Glenn thought after the tragedy that her son was a danger only to himself, when she called 9-1-1 she thought he was a danger to others also.

who are we supposed to call when a friend or loved one is in crisis and we don't want 'em gunned down?

In Multnomah County, call Project Respond, 503-988-4888. They have mental health specialists available to help people 24/7/365, with staff available to speak more than 15 languages. Major credit is due County Chairs Stein and Linn for funding this important resource, which not only helps people in crisis in the community, but also saves money as well as lives.

I hate to tell ya, but Project Respond takes the pigs along to break the ice when people are suicidal.

I'm sure you've heard this before, but how many of you have taken to opportunity to go on a police ride-along? You might be pleasantly surprised at the quality of folks that are working for your community. Instead of ranting, you might be interested to see some of the tens of thousands of person contacts made by your police department with dangerous people that turn out safely for all parties. An open mind is an incredible thing.

JP is correct: the hairiest arrests are those people who are high on various intoxicants and/or the mentally ill. 99% of them are taken into custody without incident.

Sadly, I have known three officers who died on the job (murdered by those they were trying to arrest) over the last 30 years. I find the term "PIGS" offensive to their memory, as it does not accurately portray the majority of police officers.

If it is about the police "winning' then isn't this a police state?

Thats kinda taking it out of context, now isnt it?

I still think we have to have the rule of law. And the rules need to be followed. When the cops are out of line, thats one thing. But when a situation comes to the point the cops are called, you need to do what they say.

Like in the situation with the Sheriff's deputy...those women did what he said, and now due process is taking care of the problem. He will be dealt with. What if they got combative, and tried to fight him? It would have gotten ugly in a hurry, and that cop can make up anything when calls his buddies for help.

The problem, I think, Jon, is that, as today's O reported, the police are acting "by the book". There will be no repurcussions, no "due process" although, as Senator Gordly and others are noting, police training lacks something in the area of dealing with mentally disturbed persons. The police have "won", if that is what this is about.

When the police kill someone like this, they are, in effect, operating as prosecutor, judge and jury, "Instant justice machines" is a concept I saw in a cartoon once. My point is that we need to be having this conversation. Why in the heck Gordly's bill to improve police training failed and how many times this has to happen before it can succeed is what I would like to know. WHY is Oregon seemingly ALWAYS behind the curve when it comes to education?

Who says he was mentally disturbed?
According to the family he was just a "normal kid" and the O says he was a football hero. Doesnt sound mental to me.
And nobody "won" here. I think that is obvious. But equally as obvious is the fact that he should have just dropped the knife, and did what he was told.

Maybe his thinking was so distorted that he couldn't do what the cops asked, Jon. I read somewhere (Duin's column? that his family acknowledged he had some problems, that he went ballistic when he didn't get his way.)Possibly a spoiled brat, but we'll never know now what his MMPI would show. We DO, however, know was on alcohol and that can distort perception.

If you die as a result of being unable to do what the cops say, we are full circle with this conversation: That is a police state. Due process for the cops but none for the citizenry? C'mon, Jon.

And I think the pressure to be sports heroes drives some kids nuts (I knew a few who went on to become alcoholics and druggies), and it causes others to waste their lives, like the guy in Irwin Shaw's story: The Eighty Yard Run.

That should be :waste their productive lives reflecting on their big moment in high school sports.

Still looking for a catchall solution here.

Instead of wringing your hands about the awful pigs that kill instead of helping, think about what you would have done, or how things could be improved. Are you personally willing to risk your life trying to wrestle a deadly weapon out of the hand of a person who is bleeding, out of control, and tells you that he is going to kill you, or himself? Or, are you personally willing to let this same person take this knife into a house full of innocent people? Have you ever been in a situation like this? Can you in any way relate to the dynamic nature of this contact? I just think it’s very easy to call this one from the sidelines, never having been there.

Has anyone asked how this 18-year-old boy got into this situation? If he's been suicidal in the past, and has a history of depression, who's taking him out and letting him get so intoxicated that he's willing to threaten his own parents and destroy their property?

I'm no cop apologist, far from it. But I am a cop. If tactics and strategies for dealing with the mentally ill or intoxicated can be improved, I'm signing up for that class tomorrow. Taking someone's life is on my short list of worst things that could ever happen.

It does amaze me that some of the same compassionate citizens who are up in arms over this will berate and demand that I "move along" the mentally ill and transient population that gathers near their doorsteps. Dying of exposure, addiction and the neglect of your fellow human under an overpass doesn't get anyone any news stories.

(Please accept apologies for verbosity and self-righteousness.)

Tigard Police released a photo of the "alleged knife" that Mr. Glenn was waving around when he was shot:

http://www.katu.com/news/3957741.html`

Whoops: had a typo...Here's corrected link

http://www.katu.com/news/3957741.html

I also heard one of his friends comment that they used the knife for "hooka" maintenance. If they were immigrants from the middle east, I might think it was culturally appropriate to own a hooka.

But what is an 18 year old kid putting in a water pipe? I'm not going to speak ill of the dead (and I have no first hand knowledge), but anybody who is self-medicating their depression with drugs and alcohol is an accident waiting to happen.

"Dying of exposure, addiction and the neglect of your fellow human under an overpass doesn't get anyone any news stories"

Unfortunately. At times I think there is more wisdom hidden in some of those scarred hearts than in all the various hallowed halls hereabouts.

And JP, I have worked with, lived with (Christian commune) and represented homeless people.

One more thing I just thought of: JP, if cops were to make an organized effort to contact Senator Gordly, saying they wanted to learn how to defuse these situations, perhaps she could get a bill through the legislature.

Back in the 80s, the Spokane Police Dept., after killing a lot of unarmed, mentally ill or crazed men, started calling it "officer-assisted suicide".

There is useful info in Duin's column today. Apparently those "in the know' are already taking advantage of crisis intervention training. Just gotta make knowledge more universal, I guess.

Hard to second guess the officers at the scene, however, the SOP seems to be to escalate the situation with a show of overwhelming force. Totally the wrong approach for this situation. And this nonsense about being attacked from 21' with a knife. A properly trained person will see a knife of that type and relax, since they know that all they have to do is fight the knife. A trained knife fighter will keep you at bay and bleed you to death with little quick slashes. An insane person with a knife is easy if you are properly trained and don't have a gun in your hand.

What training do you have that makes "An insane person with a knife easy if you are properly trained[?]" Just about every local police force in the portland metro area is hiring and they would be more than happy to give you each and every insane person with a weapon call for you to handle bare handed. My bet is that you actually might have some military or police background and training that will let you disarm the first couple insane people, maybe more. But sooner or later, the odds are going to catch up with you and you'll be killed.