Remember the dead birds on the north Pacific atolls?

In my mind, plastic bags are one of the sources of that. Plastic bags, and other plastic film products, are the most likely to escape human control and end up in watercourses headed to the ocean.

Of course, I keep wondering if petroleum products are becoming so relatively expensive and are due to become more rare, why is it that we are expending so much of it providing free grocery bags?

Yeah, exactly. We re-use our paper bags for our weekly trash, and our plastic bags for dog poop. If we don't get bags at the grocery store, we'll just buy them, probably at Cost-Co. Not sure how this really changes anything at all.

It's not clear how this will help the planet.

It mostly won't--because plastic bags used to carry purchases out of stores are only a tiny fraction of the plastic stores use.

In my mind, plastic bags are one of the sources of that.

Not really. IN fact, the majority of plastic ending up in waterways and oceans are *not* plastic shopping bags.

The real reason it's being done (in PDX and the state) is it's a political bonus. Plastic shopping bags aren't the real plastic problem--packaging and shipping is. In other words, all those people bringing their own shopping bags are still buying products encased (or shipped in) plastic.

Another case of wishful thinking about "changing the world" by making slightly different purchasing decisions.

Other parts of the planet have been doing this for ages. Charging for bags is normal in most of europe, and parts of Canada these days.
For a real eye opener on plastic in general and plastic bottles in particular, check out the the web site and the blogs about the sailing catamaran, "Plastiki" now enroute to Australia. Thor Hyerdal's (Kon Tiki) grand kids are part of the crew. The boat is made almost entirely from plastic bottles and other recycled plastic parts.
I have sailed through the Pacific garbage patch. In general too many humans are not good for this planet.

Just another reason to shop in Vancouver. They have Wal mart just across the I-205 bridge. And you don't pay sales tax with Oregon ID.

This is the closest Walmart for much of N.E. Portland.

PS: If Portland merchants had any balls they'd toss every council member that votes for this trash.

Thanks
JK

Looks like our elected officials have solved the big problems, like unemployment.

Now we can focus on the fun stuff. On to flag burning and honoring Elvis' birthday ...

I feel like I am in a Homeowners Association with this cityhall where a few loud, busybodies run the show, jerking us from one not to do activity to another not to do activity. If cityhall represented everyday Portlanders it would put such a ban up for a citywide vote.

Wow! The state is slowly going BANKRUPT and these idiots are worrying about plastic bags. Talk about MORONS with no real sense of priorities. I suggest a plastic bag be tightly secured over the head of any idiot that approves of such CRAP.

On to flag burning and honoring Elvis' birthday

Oh no no no! Totally not Portland's style! That's red-state stuff. Here it would be banning any fabric not made from sustainably grown hemp, creating the Portland Peace Bureau, and honoring the city's first Samoan, transgendered, disabled bike activist.

Anyone who's ever been in the backcountry of Mexico has seen the huge result of loose plastic bag garbage piles.
The city of Portland banning them will of course have absolutely no effect on the world save for insecure busybodies feeling better about themselves for a day.

... Portland Peace Bureau ...

Well, we do have a Human Rights Commission.

Anyone who's ever been in the backcountry of Mexico has seen the huge result of loose plastic bag garbage piles.

It seems that plastic bags are much like monarch butterflies ...

and our plastic bags for dog poop.

So you put something that is completely organic and biodegradable into a container that isnt?

Some groceries use bags that are "somewhat" degradable. And when going on long walkies with a 60-pound dog, the plastic bag is a must.

Jack -

i respectfully disagree that having Albertsons/Freddies/Safeway/Winco
being required to charge for paper bags is a big deal.

Indeed, its the key for the environazis getting this through the legislature. Its an added revenue stream for each of the grocery purveyor chains, lets them charge a separate fee for something currently bundled into their pricers (bag costs, paper or plastic) and lets the purveyors say "Not our fault, we have to do it, the Legislature says so, Call you local legislator'>

And you can bet that there will not be aroll back in grocery prices after the purveyors get to charge that fee.

The bag fee for paper is a bribe paid to the grocery chains so that they don't lobby against the environazis latest nanny state proposals, and the money for the bribe will come directly from the pockets and grocery budgets of folks who are too stupid to pay attention.

I personally already use 6 of those bags and take the $ 0.05 or $ 0/06 rebate every time I shop. I've paid for my recycleable bags by now, and am into a positive cash flow.

IMHO, paying folks a monetary incentive in their pocket works a whole lot better than taking money out of their pockets and handing it to the grocery chains t as a bribe to keep the chains from opposing the legislation.

So you put something that is completely organic and biodegradable into a container that isnt?

Yes. You are more than welcome to accompany me and my dog on our walks and pick up his leavings with your choice of biodegradeable containers.

Ahh, the endless clean bag debate. It was amusing the last time I was in the UK, constantly getting asked if I minded being charged 5-10p (pence) for a plastic bag. That or just "I have to charge you for the bag, is that ok?" Yeah, I'm gonna buy that cloth one there while on vacation...

The deal with this that amuses me the most is I remember as a kid in the 80s in the SF bay area, all the enviro nuts kicking out paper bags and yelling and screaming about how great plastic is. Save the trees! Now plastic is eeevil, paper not much better so go cloth bag! Don't forget to wash it though! It may end up carrying nasty salmonella et. al along with you to the grocery store!

I save all my paper bags from Winco for trash bags/storage/misc use. Same with many plastic bags. Others I toss in the recycle can.

JS -

I hope you aren't putting your plastic bags into the roll carts for recycling - they do foul up the machinery that sorts recyclables.

That said - plastic bags are the gnat's eyelash in the entire plastics recycling arena. Look at the packaging of most items, and there's a bag full of plastics, whether with your groceries, toiletries, or most other items. Sadly, less than 10% of all plastics are ever recycled.

Also, one should look at the entire life cycle of paper v. plastic bags. Paper bags take a lot of water and chemicals to manufacture, they weigh a lot more, thus take more trucks, carrying heavier loads to transport, costing more in fuel costs, carbon loads, etc.

Dare I say it given the current mantra about our economic state - "70% of all economic activity is consumer-based" - we really need to buy a whole lot less stuff.

Now, will Sam attack the Oregonian delivering papers in plastic? I think not. They have hidden every issue that Sam has foisted on us.

Then Sam will probably go after the plastic in cars-about 49% is plastic. I guess I'll be driving a go-cart in Portland. Smart cars even have more plastic. Sam's hypocritical to say the least.

we really need to buy a whole lot less stuff.

especially food. Think of all the paper and oil we can save. No fertilizer....wow!

BAN FOOD!

Those plastic bags are made from recycled milk jugs, for starters.

Why charge at all? A nickel per bag is a LOT of money. Once the salaries benefits and uber-cool (but sustainable) direct mail pieces are paid for and sent out who controls where the rest of the money goes?

Second, don't ignore the faulty belief that taxing something will always slow or stop that something. It may if the tax is too high, but again it may not. Once in place and overlooked a fee or tax usually just allows the taxing agency to make regular money off of someone's actions behavior or need. Death taxes do not stop or slow people from dying, nor do taxes on the sale of alcohol, tobacco, gasoline.

Got Logic -

You are missing the point on the nickle per papre bag charge.

Under the state wide proposal, from day 1 all money collected for bags stays with the retailer. Its not a tax and not a cent goes to either the gub'mint or any enviro group.

The entire sum, in perpetuity, goes to the food vendors. Its their bribe for not opposing the banning of plastic bags.

Control is the issue.
Some of us resent this kind of control especially by a Mayor who cannot control himself with one fiasco after another. It seems he cannot control himself in trying every which way to make people pay more.

What does he get out of this? Is it continued support by certain groups that will not look at the entire picture? Some people are so narrowly focused on one issue and that is all they care about, never mind that in more important issues than plastic bags, he is a failure and a hypocrite.

If this group is so concerned why don't they lobby the stores to offer an option of biodegradable bags? I guess there is more interest in controlling, banning and charging.

A citywide ban will have the effect, out where I live in outerSW, of driving a lot more business to the Tigard Freddies; the Tigard Winco, and killing the Barbur Blvd. safeway, injuring Barbur Foods. I think the same will happen with killing the Albertson's on BH Highway, and boosting the Safeway at BH Hwy and Oleson Road.

Industrial strength dumb, but all that can be expected from Adams.

What a fool that man is.

Last summer, at an ancient beachside ruin in Turkey, I did a quasi rock-climb to escape the sight of plastic bags littering the main beach. I clambered around a rocky projection in the bay looking for a quiet spot to contemplate and imagine the Greeks...sweating, slowly, I pulled myself carefully, expectantly around the last section into a tiny invisible....sheltered......... inlet/cove..........and found............
a plastic soda bottle bobbing in the water and a pair of thongs sunning on the rock face. It was a revealing moment of zeitgeist. Ban all plastic that litters the natural world, for heaven's sake. Life is too short for us or our descendants to have to suffer the sight of ANY of it.

Gaye, I hope you didn't actually swim in the waters off those bays in Greece. Those folks have been dumping their sewage into those waters for thousands of years!

I reuse plastic grocery bags to clean out the cat box, but I guess I can just start flushing the stuff. Portland's ancient sewer system can handle that, right?

The plastic bags are made from a bi-product of natural gas. Otherwise the bi-product is burned off, in the production of natural gas.
Paper bags are a lot worst for the environment, due to the energy to manufacture and transport them.

It begins to look as if the dogs and the cats are a non-trivial part of the problem here. And by the way, those of you fulminating above over your city government re-proposing the bag fee thing? And vowing to take your business to Tigard or Beaverton? Maybe you didpn't notice that the proposal involves a state law. I guess you can carpool with Jim Karlock up tp Washington to collect your plastic sacks.

we should use paper bags more to save our planet from the devastating effects of plastics.

I guess you can carpool with Jim Karlock up tp Washington to collect your plastic sacks.

Not a big deal, I usually drive up to Walmart in Vancouver to do my grocery shopping anyway.

It is an interesting natural experiment in arbitrary political POWER of local government.

If one can ban distribution of plastic bags, one theoretically can ban distribution of anything — toilet paper, soap, condoms, underwear, shoes, tobacco, newspapers, gasoline, asphalt.

At some stores, the checkers often double-bag the plastic bags, particularly for heavy items (ie, 10 lb of flour). Also, they put fewer items into the plastic bags. If I'm supposed to pay a nickel per bag, and the store gets to keep the nickel, there isn't going to be any incentive for them to use fewer bags for my groceries.

(And how's that going to work at Winco, where you bag your own groceries AFTER you pay? I guess they'll have to push Winco out of town like they're trying to push Walmart out. It's also a big box store that appeals to the un-trendy and the working class.)

If the City were actually attempting to make an environmental difference, they'd attempt to ban plastic BOTTLES. Bottles, in fact, are the bulk of the plastic floating out there in the Pacific.

Like most "feel good" environmental hand jobs like these, it's not really at all what it seems.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article3508263.ece

Are plastic bags a waste? Yes; they create tremendous amounts of long-lasting garbage. But there's a long list of far worse products consumed locally that the City could focus on, right here in the city, that would make a much larger impact.

If you doubt what this was all about, notice the orchestrated theatrics of Mayor Adamsduring and after the City Council meeting. For issues he "likes", for example, clapping and hooting are okay (as for this issue). He holds a press conference. He invites costumed "environmentalists" to sit in the front row. It's theater, really, not leadership.

And Mayor Adams likes theater.

And here's a direct quote from the article linked to above:

David Santillo, a marine biologist at Greenpeace, told The Times that bad science was undermining the Government’s case for banning the bags. “It’s very unlikely that many animals are killed by plastic bags,” he said. “The evidence shows just the opposite. We are not going to solve the problem of waste by focusing on plastic bags.

“It doesn’t do the Government’s case any favours if you’ve got statements being made that aren’t supported by the scientific literature that’s out there. With larger mammals it’s fishing gear that’s the big problem. On a global basis plastic bags aren’t an issue. It would be great if statements like these weren’t made.”

Gaye -

The plastic doesn't litter. Its incapable of doing so.

Its the clowns who can't be bothered to pick up after themselves who litter.

You did pick up the bottle (note, not a plastic bag) and the flip flops / thongs and bring them back to town to place in a trash can, didn't you?

And those clowns who don't pick up after themselves are the grandchildren 100 times over of the clowns wo left pottery shards and amphorae (sp?) all over the Med 5,000 years ago about which contemporary folks go all gaga over as important archealogical finds.

Two things:

Plastic bags are recyclable. The stores receive them for recycling. Far West Fibers takes them, along with many other items that can't go curbside. Litterbugs (remember that word?) will be litterbugs regardless of this. The plastic bags that are recycled become other useful items that can again be recycled. Isn't this "sustainable?"

And...

Why are us peasants here in Portland who go to the city council meetings only allowed to show their approval or disproval of an issue by using "happy hands," will the proponents of Creepy's agenda get approved to stage a freakin' circus?? What a moronic display to please the king.

... WHILE the proponents of Creepy's agenda..."

Sheesh.

On a related note (the garbage gyre):

http://consumerist.com/2010/07/lets-recycle-the-swirling-vortex-of-plastic-garbage-into-an-island-utopia.html

PDXLifer,Why are us peasants here in Portland who go to the city council meetings only allowed to show their approval or disproval of an issue by using "happy hands," . . .

Are the "happy hands" a precursor to this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_salute

Actually, the Turks are quite aware of their plastic-bags-as destruction-of-visual-landscape problem. Every beach and every ruin has paid people to constantly pick them up. Otherwise noone would go to them.

And where do these things, bags and bottles, go? The thought is shudder-provoking. They will not be objects of beauty and interest, that alight the imagination and soothe the soul. No, they will always be a blight on the planet, and should be banned.

Everyone worrying about their groceries, there are simple solutions. Carry your bags with you when you go grocery shopping. The fact that we have become too busy and too stuck in our ways to start doing this is the ONLY blockade to getting rid of plastic bags. Same with water bottles. Carry your own metal bottle, fill it for a fee that will make the business people happy and profitable.

Or develop disposable containers that break down easily, or fly the mess out to outer space. Whatever. Just stop interfering with our ephemeral bliss in this place.

Wait a minute: countries that have banned plastic shopping bags have an ongoing, increasing problem with plastic garbage on land, beaches and waterways? And their plastic garbage is increasing?

Then what, exactly, did their ban accomplish?

Eiden...please don't flush cat litter in toilet. Bundle it in your garbage. Cat "debris" has been linked to a parasite killing otters, Toxoplasma gondii.

Greenpeace dude is wrong.Plastic bags kill many whales, sea turtles, etc., each year.

From the comments section at the OLive:

http://www.leg.state.or.us/10ss1/measures/sb1000.dir/sb1009.intro.html

Clinamen- Nice observation!

Greenpeace dude is wrong.Plastic bags kill many whales, sea turtles, etc., each year.

He didn't say "none", so you're attempting to argue what "many" means. Given the dude's expertise and affiliation, what have you got to offer?

Dean McMic, that's the point. I do put cat litter in the trash, thanks to plastic bags.

Ecohuman...degrees in biology. The point of MANY was dismissed by Greenpeace.

Eiden...the point was don't use plastic bags for your cat...find something else. Recyle them at your grocery store.

Adams claims there is a big problem with the plastic bags backing up in our sewer system.

Remember to bring your non-disposable grocery bag every time you go shopping so you don't have to pay the 5 cent fee every time. Make sure it's in the car with you at all times. Or if you walk or bicycle, have fun toting it around.

I've never used a non-disposable grocery bag, I've always recycled my plastic bags by bringing them back to the store. So will the store think I'm a shoplifter if I walk around with one of those non-disposable grocery bags?

We can wrap this up and call it a "bagatelle".

"Last summer, at an ancient beachside ruin in Turkey, I did a quasi rock-climb to escape the sight of plastic bags littering the main beach.'

Gaye I hope that you sailed over. I would hate to think you used any petroleum products to get there.

Yes, flying is a problem, but the pleasure of travel is too intense to forgo, unfortunately.

We did decide to stay stateside this year.
We picked the two most culturally interesting places in the USA we could think of. Ashland (spring break), and New York City (tomorrow..who knows, maybe we'll run in to the Bogdanskis at the NY Hall of Science, or Mme Tussaud's, or something).

The well-intentioned supporting cast makes its entrance:

http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2010/07/banning_plastic_bags_the_ocean.html

Read carefully, and notice this quote:

All this plastic is strangling, starving and poisoning marine life. While there are no precise estimations, anecdotal studies have calculated a million seabirds and 100,000 sea turtles and marine mammals die each year as a result of marine debris. And those numbers don't include the countless fish that also die every year.

Notice that (a) there is no actual evidence that plastic shopping bags are the culprit (or, in fact, even a meaningful percentage of the culprit), and (b)like all well-intentioned and semi-informed environmental friends, they conflate "all plastic" with "shopping bags" to make a case for banning them.

I'll say it again--it's a beautiful manipulation of constituents for political theater. Nicely done, Mayor Adams.

Lawrence:We can wrap this up and call it a "bagatelle".

Yes, there is a whole "bag of tell" someday about this sad story of Portland's history where a Mayor is more interested in plastic bags than in more serious matters and the list is endless.

And the poll question that shows widespread support for the bag ban?

Single-use, petroleum-based plastic bags pollute our land, contribute to a swirling mass of garbage twice the size of Texas off Oregon's coast, and continue our dependence on dangerous foreign oil supplies. Making paper shopping bags is a toxic shopping bags is a toxic process that pollutes our rivers. To encourage more use of reusable shopping bags, do you favor or oppose banning plastic bags in the City of Portland and requiring a 5-cent fee on paper bags?

And which ten people were offered the poll question? The commenters on Channel 12's article were pretty clearly not in favor of this proposal.

Of course, the poll question is full of half-truths, Sammy's favorite kind - plastic shopping bags contribute little to the sea-going mass; and most plastic bags are made out of natural gas, which if it's foreign sourced, is from Canada.

And here's a question - why hasn't some organization like GreenPeace, traveled to the mass in the ocean, and started hauling it back to land for recycling?

Ecohuman- good to know you have necropsied every sea animal in the last 25 years to support your assertions on marine life and plastic bags impact. What a relief to know we can find you in central casting for future anecdotes.

We'll go with NOAA....but thanks anyway.

We'll go with NOAA....but thanks anyway.

I'm glad you mentioned NOAA. I've worked with them. Here's what NOAA has to say about the "100,000 marine mammal deaths each year" claim:

http://marinedebris.noaa.gov/info/faqs.html#5

Since you are "going with NOAA", here's a quote from that link that you might find interesting:

The manuscript does not state that marine mammals are dying from plastic pieces, but rather that mortality is caused by entanglement from lost fishing gear and other unknown causes.

And that's for starters. I'd invite the "Skipper" and all other readers to visit that link (and its main site), do other research, and reach your own conclusions.

But I'll say it again--this "plastic bag ban" is political theater by Adams. And if you're convinced that "plastic bag" policy is something the City Council should be spending its time on, ask yourself this--why is City Council not spending the same amount of time on cleaning up the local enviroment--like industrial pollution of the Willamette? Or, say, local air quality? Or pick any of several dozen other local, critical ecological problems that City Council could make policy to mitigate--*tomorrow*.

Ecohuman-
Are you saying whales and other marine life are not mistaking plastic bags for jellyfish, etc? Or that birds are not mistaking plastic pieces for food and then dying such as the Laysan Albatross? Complete denial. Plastic bags and debris are lethal.

Your grasp and citations of the issue are unremarkable, and yes, we will stay with NOAA and Monterey Aquarium, etc for our sources.

Plastic bags and debris are lethal.

Anything can kill. What you're attempting to argue is how much, or what. NOAA--right there, in black and white, on their marine debris web site--explains what's actually known.

Your grasp and citations of the issue are unremarkable

Yet I actually read the NOAA explanations--at your suggestion--and they don't agree with what you're saying. Why is that?

and yes, we will stay with NOAA and Monterey Aquarium, etc for our sources.

By "we", you can only mean me, because you keep putting words in the mouth of NOAA and calling it fact.

Sadly you continue to miss the point about marine debris and deaths. You are woefully uninformed.

"Stejneger's beaked whales have been incidentally taken as bycatch in the driftnet and gillnet fisheries in the Sea of Japan and off the west coast of North America. They have also been hunted in a Japanese fishery targeting beaked whales. Marine debris is another threat to this species, which has been known to ingest dangerous items such as plastic bags and string (Jefferson et al. 2008)." NOAA

Next time try to keep up.

Skipper Bob,
Is the issue plastic bags or biodegradable plastic bags?

As I mentioned earlier, and I am not promoting the use of plastic bags, but why not lobby for bags to be biodegradable instead of banning "plastic bags"?

What about all the plastic bottles and containers in our stores?

The issues as far as my comments have been is that our city is in serious trouble financially, to the point of possible bankruptcy and/or we will be taxed or rates increased on this or that as a bailout. Also, the city is attempting more bonds. That is why we need a Mayor to focus on financial accountability, not plastic bags.
I also stated some of us do resent this type of control as a result of one control after another here and are fed up with it.

Let the group do the lobbying for biodegradable bags and issues regarding all the plastic bottles and packaging.

Biodegradable bags would be a solution. The plastics you describe need attention too. Ecohuman apparently has not seen the carnage from plastics impacting seabirds,etc. as close as Gearhart. Maybe a beach cleanup in September and March to see what this debris does to environment would be helpful.

The group pushing this needs to broaden their scope if they really want to help. In the end this is another City Council distaction from bigger financial problems in the city. You are correct..thanks for your input.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic

Marine debris is another threat to this species, which has been known to ingest dangerous items such as plastic bags and string

I'll let you pause and consider the difference between "ingest" and "die from". NOAA explains it right there, in their own words, on the site. You didn't read them.

Next time try to keep up.

"Skipper", I get the feeling you may be lost on a three-hour tour. Say hi to Gilligan for me. And tell me when you're going to demand that Mayor Adams make policy that institutes a ban on plastic *bottles*, which make up the second largest amount of debris in the gyre.

But you knew that, right?

And "Skipper"--why aren't you demanding that the Mayor make policy that protects *local* waterways from pollution? He can do it, right now. All he has to do is to do it. I wonder why he doesn't, but instead focuses on "plastic bags made from petroleum"?

And you noticed that the ban is *not* on plastic bags, didn't you? It's on plastic bags made from petroleum

Last time I checked, there were about three dozen types of plastic bags floating around out there, and only a few of them are biodegradable--and lots of them are not made with petroleum.

I wonder why Adams chose the language so carefully? Because marine life chokes only on plastic bags made of petroleum, but other bags pass harmlessly through them? No?

Keep up, Skipper.

We appeciate the glib, albeit ignorant responses you provide. While it seems the facts have to be repeated more than once, we'll try one more time.

If you understood anatomy and physiology it becomes clear the debris ingestion IS a death sentence. Why? Because it obstructs the GI, and as toxins leach, the liver is negatively impacted. A very cruel and nasty way to die. Sperm whales, Bryde's etc. have been documented to have this occurance.

Being wise-guy has taken you away from the fact we are probably not that far apart in our ideaology on environmental impacts. A little more experiance and education would do wonders for your perspective.

You won't find plastic bottles in my house. See...now you're all caught up and Adams needs educating too.

Directly from NOAA's Marine Debris Program website, about the ubiquitous claim that "Up to one hundred thousand marine mammals and possibly more die each year" from plastics:

Origin of plastic bag statement: We were able to find no information to support this statement. An erroneous statement attributing these figures to plastic bags was published in a 2002 report published by the Australian Government; it was corrected in 2006. See the 2002 report published by Environment Australia entitled, “Plastic Shopping Bags – Analysis of Levies and Environmental Impacts” or click here.

In 2006, Environment Canada recanted the statement “A figure of 100,000 marine animals killed annually has been widely quoted by environmental groups; this was from a study in Newfoundland which estimated the number of animals entrapped by plastic bags in that area from a four-year period from 1981-1984” and replaced it with “A figure of 100,000 marine animals killed annually has been widely quoted by environmental groups; this was from a study in Newfoundland which estimated the number of animals entrapped by plastic debris in that area from a four-year period from 1981-1984.”

http://marinedebris.noaa.gov/info/plastic.html#4

Meanwhile, pardon my glib ignorance.

You keep throwing up numbers out that were never entered into the discussion and have little meaning. Being only an armchair ecohuman does not make your position sound credible. Go back to the A&P principles. The plastic impact on marine animals remains the same....negative. Keep giving us more meaningless quotes.