About 13 hours ago, the Portland police shot and killed a man in the city's Washington Park, at Hoyt Arboretum. A witness reports hearing four shots being fired. It was the middle of a nice afternoon at the start of spring break, and the park was full of people enjoying the day, until they had to run for their lives.
Here it is 13 hours later, and we know nothing more than that. We don't know why the police were called, other than that there was "a disturbance." We don't know who the dead man was. We don't know whether he was armed, although there are rumors that he had a knife. We don't know who the police officer or officers are who killed him. We don't know why they shot, and specifically why they shot to kill, four times.
It's 13 hour later. The police have doubtlessly been up half the night lining up all their ducks, cross-checking whatever their story is going to be this time. Shouldn't we know more than what we do about this by now? Why isn't the media screaming bloody murder?
UPDATE, 10:10 a.m.: We're up to 19 hours now, and now we're told that the police chief is going to have a press conference at 11:30 a.m. Sounds as though the official story on this one is going to be fairly elaborate.
I just left this comment on an Oregonian story about the shooting:
It's ridiculous that the Portland Police Bureau is taking an entire day to release any details about the killing. This makes it look -- and probably it's true -- that they're more concerned with getting their story straight than serving the public interest.
"Protect and serve." Question is: who is the PPB protecting, and who are they serving? I'd say, not the public. It's also disturbing that the Oregonian is so passive, apparently meekly taking whatever info the PPB dishes out rather than doing any independent reporting.
The answer is quite simple - yes they can. But until there's a media that cares to report facts instead of parroting out the party line, a true police oversight board that can investigate at arm's length and subpeona witnesses, a DA's office that will investigate and prosecute officer committed crimes, a city council that isn't afraid of the police union, and a citizenry that really cares, it won't happen.
asking the cops why it takes time for facts to be released is reasonable, although i doubt you would be satisfied with the answer that you would get about the investigative process.
On television shows, the police claim they're not releasing information until they've informed the family of the death. Any chance this is the explanation?
I admit that I've watched a few live cop shows. These cops from other states and countries are shown apprehending sometimes violent and aggressive people that frankly probably would have been shot at had it been Portland. Portland Police are trained to kill, if they pull the trigger they are applying deadly force.
Scott Westermann is already out in front of this releasing information to the Tribune and KPAM. He said the man had a knife ("I have seen it") and that the police officer was in "full retreat". Nice work Scott, way to set the stage. Why is Westermann given access to the investigation?
I have heard that they don't have positive ID, so next of kin have not been notified. But I agree with Jack, they are in full dress rehersal for their performance in front of the grand jury. Sad to know that they can shoot a guy with a knife (at 20-30 feet away I guess) with two shots, then pause and then finish him off with two more shots. A knife versus a cop with a semi-auto handgun. But PPB are always innocent.
Personal Safety Expert Professor Arthur Cohen introduced me to the concept known as Tueller's drill. It is a drill which shows that most people can cover 21 feet in about 1.5 seconds.
Sgt. Dennis Tueller of Salt Lake City Police Department conducted experiments which let to the conclusion that an attacker with a knife in his hand covers 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. Therefore anything under 21 feet is considered to be in the zone of "imminent danger of death or great bodily harm."
In other words a person with a knife or any edged weapon is a direct and imminent threat to you if that person is within 21 feet (7 yards).
Research shows that a person with a knife who is closer than 7 yards can stab or cut you before you can stop them with a gun.
Most police officers, even with the gun already in hand, cannot hit a target twice before the "assailant" can cover 10 yards.
rumor has it that they're trying to locate the "unknown individual" that happened to be
nearby with a cellphone and recorded it all and then took a dash down the trail as the other copters arrived. they want this film footage and may hope to intimidate the citizen from sharing what they have, as it's needed for the "official investigation" (get it? wink! wink!)
The reaction time from recognition to action is about 3/4 second. I really am doubtful, particularly when at least 2 officers would likely have the suspect covered, that a shot or two from a Glock would not be rendered. If the suspect is hit, he would not continue running but be thrown back, or other reaction to the energy of the bullet.
Besides, where is the suspect going to actually stab the officer with any deadly results? The wear body armor.
The employment application test used by the City of Portland Police Department should work to exclude all persons seeking the job for personal or financial reasons.
Being cursed to it would be appropriate and acceptable.
You have a point about knife protection, but some vests do offer extra protection. They all offer some protection, especially if it's a slashing attack.
On Channel 12's website, it is reported that the deceased not only had a knife, but emerged from a bathroom covered with blood. Suicide by PPB? Crazy guy? Drugs/alcohol? And it does seem interesting that they'be put the call out for witnesses who left before they could be interviewed. They were probably worried about being shot and decided to skedaddle out of there.
Lawrence - That Capa 'Falling Soldier" photo is from 1936, the era of the Spanish Civil War, not WW1, and most serious folks who have investigated it have concluded that Capa staged it. It's probably fake. So much for this demonstration of Newton's Laws.
Lawrence - That Capa 'Falling Soldier" photo is from 1936, the era of the Spanish Civil War, not WW1, and most serious folks who have investigated it have concluded that Capa staged it.
The allegation that Capa had posed his photograph was first made by O.D. Gallagher.... Gallagher told Phillip Knightley ... that “at one stage of the war he and Capa were sharing a hotel room.” (Knightley does not tell us where or when during the war Gallagher had shared a room with Capa.)
...
In any case, it is possible to document Capa’s travels in Spain between the outbreak of the civil war and the first publication of his photograph; he was never anywhere within several hundred miles of San Sebastián. Gallagher probably did share a room near San Sebastián with a photographer who made pictures of posed exercises, but that photographer was certainly not Capa. Nearly forty years after the events, Gallagher’s memory had clearly played a trick on him. No doubt in perfectly good faith he confused Capa with someone else with whom he had shared a hotel room there in 1936. There is no evidence that Gallagher and Capa ever met before January 1939, when they were both staying in the Hotel Majestic in Barcelona.
...
There can be no further doubt that The Falling Soldier is a photograph of Federico Borrell García at the moment of his death during the battle at Cerro Muriano on September 5, 1936. May the slanderous controversy that has plagued Robert Capa’s reputation for more than twenty-five years now, at last, come to an end with a verdict decisively in favor of Capa’s integrity. It is time to let both Capa and Borrell rest in peace, and to acclaim The Falling Soldier once again as an unquestioned masterpiece of photojournalism and as perhaps the greatest war photograph ever made.
Derrelplant - That was Whelan's conclusion in 1995. The discussion continues, and a 2007 Spanish documentary found an alleged eyewitness who said he saw the 'victim' die behind a tree (no tree in Capa's shot) 35km away. See, for example:
The fact that the guy shows up happy & alive on Capa's contact sheet in frames numbered after the famous shot also speaks for a fake. But the fakery is not my main point - the allegation of Newtonian laws blowing a gunshot victim backwards violently was. A shot capable of knocking the guy back five feet would have done even more to the guy firing the gun, even if the bullet did not go through the victim (thus not transferring all of the kinetic energy.) But both are small points & I have no time to debate them with monomaniacs. I'm sorry the PDX guy is dead, but at least he seems to have been white, so we'll be spared the parade of dubious characters claiming Blacks are singled out - The cops are equal-opportunity shooters, and they are not always in the wrong. The delay in releasing info & privileged access for Cop union folks is ridiculous, though, & feeds the anti-Cop frenzy.
"Besides, where is the suspect going to actually stab the officer with any deadly results? They wear body armor"
Yes they do. Kevlar on the upper torso. Body armor is worn under the uniform shirt. It does not protect the jugular vein, the lower femoral artery, major arteries in the wrist,or the eyes. A blade is a blade. It cuts stuff.
Right. The officer had to kill him because his Exacto knife was so dangerous at 20 feet.
Yet another execution of a distraught mentally disabled person who posed no real threat, which we will again be told was in full conformance to PPB policy and training.
"If the suspect is hit, he would not continue running but be thrown back, or other reaction to the energy of the bullet".
Thats a good one. Talk about too much tv.
There may not be a great number of police officers killed by knives in any given year, but there are a significant number of officers killed with their own firearms after being overpowered by a deranged or angry suspect who came after the officer.
has anyone done a dig on Officer Jason Walters yet? The killer of unknown man (the
would-be X-Acto Knife Killer, as labeled by the cops!) surely has a background worth the digging. Never know what nuggets are found till ya dig. I'm going to do a Google on him now...
However the final result of the dissipation of kinetic energy turns out, it has to be accounted for, perhaps slowing down the forward motion or stopping it altogether. The Fallen Soldier may have been off balance, the energy exacerbating the effect of the shot.
At any rate Newton still holds. The devil is in the details.
Oh, you could certainly do some damage with an X-ACTO knife — used them for a quarter century of graphics arts work — and you could probably plunge one of the ones with a thin handle in several inches in short order. But it's not what I'd choose for an attack weapon.
...there are a significant number of officers killed with their own firearms after being overpowered by a deranged or angry suspect who came after the officer.
I keep hearing this used as a justification for officers having to shoot people before they get close enough to take their guns, but it's starting to sound like it might not be safer to just have the cops not carry guns if their only option for controlling a suspect is shooting them.
Nobody should suggest the cop isn't allowed to defend himself against an aggressive person looking to cause injury, but WTF ... they didn't have a beanbag gun like the officer on the MAX platform? They didn't have a car to climb back into (presumably with the windows rolled up)? They couldn't shoot the guy in the legs or hit him with a nightstick?
The fact that the guy shows up happy & alive on Capa's contact sheet in frames numbered after the famous shot...
Tis claim by Weston is based on a memory of his having seen the sheet at some distant time in the past and not on a copy of anything that's publicly available or verifiable. Not really much of a "fact."
Fake or real, the picture doesn't show someone being "thrown back" by a shot as the original person who brought it up claimed. The guy's just falling backward.
Lawrence - This repetition is getting boring - if a .30-'06 bullet goes through someone (say 180 grains, c. 2,900 ft-lb), most of its kinetic energy flies off with it, & victim falls whichever direction his CG + inertia dictate. Even if stopped by bone in the body, it won't knock the guy five feet, for the same reason the guy pulling the trigger didn't get knocked back five feet when he fired. At this scale, Newton rules, & the facts are in the formulas. Now, why are we having this discussion? I'm going out on the patio for a beer.
(At the risk of prolonging this, I will admit that when I was young & even more foolish, I had been told that a pilot of a P-47 firing a burst from the aircraft's 8 - .50 caliber machine guns would experience a loss of 5 kts IAS. I later came to know an ex-Jug pilot who said he'd experienced no such speed loss, but he knew from experience that such a burst would drop a Japanese General at a latrine. "Drop" was his word, not "knock into the next prefecture," but I bet the bullets went right through with minimal transfer of kinetic energy. For what it's worth, he said they were told that a prolonged burst of all 8 .50s in the top 1/3 of an empty boxcar might derail the car, but he never tried it under controlled circumstances, or otherwise. And that's far more firepower & energy than the most macho cop has access to.)
The Spainiard is falling backward after being shot, ok? Maybe he was thrown back. Maybe not. I did a swag on that photo. The bottom line is "sensitive dependence on initial conditions".
"The Spainiard [sic] is falling backward after being shot, ok?"
Ooooh! Is Big Lawrence going to beat me up if I don't agree about some Commie's 70-year old photo? I'm shaking in my boots! Jeez - Get a Life. (And maybe learn some physics. Or spelling.) A Swag???
Funny how some constantly complain about the police, but those same complainers would not hesitate to call the police if their lives or friends and families were in danger.....
Really? If someone I knew was in the midst of a serious mental health crisis, the LAST THING I WOULD DO is call the Portland police. They don't know what they're doing and would probably kill the person in trouble.
Funny how some constantly complain about the police, but those same complainers would not hesitate to call the police if their lives or friends and families were in danger.
Last I looked, the Portland Police had a monopoly racket going. So I would call them only because I have no other choices, not because they are my preferred service provider.
And the fact that people still call them is no reason to not expect better of them.
For those making fun of "its an X-acto knife", I'm in the business of using their products. There are several forms, from the small pencil type with numerous types of blades that can be inserted to the wood handle kind (more of an mat cutting instrument) with a 4" blade. All of them I wouldn't want to deal with, and can critically wound and kill someone. Some of my friends in the boat building business do serious wood cutting of hardwoods with X-acto knives. Don't think X-actos are a pen knife. Plus, it wasn't so long ago that a violent killing occurred using even a pen knife.
We're making big progress in accuracy - moving from mislabeling the Capa photo as WW1, to nitpicking a seven-decade rounding to "73+ years - do the math," and all in one short evening. And if Wikipedia doesn't say so, well, it just can't be so! "SWAG" sounds like such a sound system on the face of it, I see no need to look it up. This new approach to history sounds a lot easier than that old, fact-based one. I'm sure these new techniques will be useful in sorting out the Police incident. Thanks!
I have ZERO sympathy for someone who charges at a cop with a knife, no matter the size. Based on the facts known so far, the guy deserved to get shot. I feel bad for his family but what happened was completely within his control. If he wanted to live, he should have obeyed the cop and not charged after him. If he had done that, he would be alive...pure and simple.
The police union has to realize that their insistence on a day or longer to get the story straight only feeds the suspicion that they are out of control & their behavior can't stand daylight. In some cases it clearly can't, but good cops will suffer needlessly because of these tactics.
Just like Chasse and Campbell, Poot, James, etc, etc, the idea that this guy was so immanently dangerous that he had to be killed is ridiculous. We all know that 99 out of 100 experienced bartenders could have talked this guy into an ambulance. It is not asking too much of our armed peace keepers and protectors to demonstrate crisis response skills at least as good as a bartender.
Thanks, Jennifer - I had pointed that out in my post, which appears two posts above yours, but that part was edited out by the Keeper, to protect the tender feelings of Lawrence.
Charamba, Douro 2008
Horse Heaven Hills, Cabernet 2010
Lorelle, Horse Heaven Hills Pinot Grigio 2011
Avignonesi, Montepulciano 2004
Lorelle, Willamette Valley Pinot Noir 2011
Villa Antinori, Toscana 2007
Mercedes Eguren, Cabernet Sauvignon 2009
Lorelle, Columbia Valley Cabernet 2011
Purple Moon, Merlot 2011
Purple Moon, Chardonnnay 2011
Abacela, Vintner's Blend No. 12
Opula Red Blend 2010
Liberte, Pinot Noir 2010
Chateau Ste. Michelle, Indian Wells Red Blend 2010
Woodbridge, Chardonnay 2011
King Estate, Pinot Noir 2011
Famille Perrin, Cotes du Rhone Villages 2010
Columbia Crest, Les Chevaux Red 2010
14 Hands, Hot to Trot White Blend
Familia Bianchi, Malbec 2009
Terrapin Cellars, Pinot Gris 2011
Columbia Crest, Walter Clore Private Reserve 2009
Campo Viejo, Rioja, Termpranillo 2010
Ravenswood, Cabernet Sauvignon 2009
Quinta das Amoras, Vinho Tinto 2010
Waterbrook, Reserve Merlot 2009
Lorelle, Horse Heaven Hills, Pinot Grigio 2011
Tarantas, Rose
Chateau Lajarre, Bordeaux 2009
La Vielle Ferme, Rose 2011
Benvolio, Pinot Grigio 2011
Nobilo Icon, Pinot Noir 2009
Lello, Douro Tinto 2009
Quinson Fils, Cotes de Provence Rose 2011
Anindor, Pinot Gris 2010
Buenas Ondas, Syrah Rose 2010
Les Fiefs d'Anglars, Malbec 2009
14 Hands, Pinot Gris 2011
Conundrum 2012
Condes de Albarei, Albariño 2011
Columbia Crest, Walter Clore Private Reserve 2007
Penelope Sanchez, Garnacha Syrah 2010
Canoe Ridge, Merlot 2007
Atalaya do Mar, Godello 2010
Vega Montan, Mencia
Benvolio, Pinot Grigio
Nobilo Icon, Pinot Noir, Marlborough 2009
Portuga, Rose 2011
Revelation, Chardonnay, Pays d'Oc 2010
Beaulieu, Cabernet, Rutherford 2005
Monte Alto, Tinto Reserva 2005
Chateau Ste. Michelle, Cabernet, Indian Wells 2009
Espiral, Vinho Rose
Vin-Koru, Pinot Gris 2011
14 Hands, Hot to Trot Red 2009
Rodney Strong, Cabernet, Sonoma 2009
Abacela, Vintner's Blend #11
Portuga, White 2010
La Bourgeoisie, Red 2009
Januik, Red 2009
Three Rivers, River's Red 2008
Kirkland, Alexander Valley Merlot 2008
Muga, Rioja Rose 2010
Quinta das Amoras, Vinho Tinto 2009
Mauro Molino, Barbera d'Alba 2009
Garda Chiaretto Rose
Columbia Crest, Two Vines Vineyard 10 White
Chateau Ste. Michelle, Pinot Gris, Columbia Valley 2009
L'Hortus, Rose de Saignee 2010
Maculan, Pino & Toi 2008
McKinley Springs, Bombing Range Red 2008
Trader Joe's Pinot Gris 2009
Montes Alpha, Cabernet 2007
Gran Sasso, Sangiovese, Terre di Chieti 2009
Garda, Classico Chiaretto Rose
Beaulieu, Cabernet, Rutherford 1999
Picos del Montgo, Tempranillo 2008
Chateau de Montmirail, Vacqueyras 2008
La Granja 360, Syrah 2009
Montgras, Carmenere Reserva 2009
Lange, Pinot Gris 2009
Columbia Crest, Horse Heaven Hills Cabernet 2008
Kirkland, Pinot Grigio 2010
Trader Joe's Coastal Syrah 2009
Columbia Crest, Horse Heaven Hills Merlot 2008
Trader Joe's Coastal Chardonnay 2009
Vieux Papes Red
Domaine de l'Aujardiere, Chardonnay 2009
Santa Rita, Cabernet, Medalla Real 2007
Penfold's, Koonunga Hill Shiraz Cabernet 2008
Guild, Red, Lot #02 2008
Dievole, Dievolino Sangiovese 2008
Laforet, Burgogne Chardonnay 2009
Columbia Winery, Merlot 2007
Bonterra, Cabernet 2008
Elk Cove, Pinot Gris 2009
Maquis Lien 2006
Scott Paul, Pinot Noir, Le Paulee 2007
The Occasional Book
Neil Young - Waging Heavy Peace
Mark Bego - Aretha Franklin, the Queen of Soul (2012 ed.)
Jenny Lawson - Let's Pretend This Never Happened
J.D. Salinger - Franny and Zooey
Charles Dickens - A Christmas Carol
Timothy Egan - The Big Burn
Deborah Eisenberg - Transactions in a Foreign Currency
Kurt Vonnegut Jr. - Slaughterhouse Five
Kathryn Lance - Pandora's Genes
Cheryl Strayed - Wild
Fyodor Dostoyevsky - The Brothers Karamazov
Jack London - The House of Pride, and Other Tales of Hawaii
Jack Walker - The Extraordinary Rendition of Vincent Dellamaria
Colum McCann - Let the Great World Spin
Niccolò Machiavelli - The Prince
Harper Lee - To Kill a Mockingbird
Emma McLaughlin & Nicola Kraus - The Nanny Diaries
Brian Selznick - The Invention of Hugo Cabret
Sharon Creech - Walk Two Moons
Keith Richards - Life
F. Sionil Jose - Dusk
Natalie Babbitt - Tuck Everlasting
Justin Halpern - S#*t My Dad Says
Mark Herrmann - The Curmudgeon's Guide to Practicing Law
Barry Glassner - The Gospel of Food
Phil Stanford - The Peyton-Allan Files
Jesse Katz - The Opposite Field
Evelyn Waugh - Brideshead Revisited
J.K. Rowling - Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone
David Sedaris - Holidays on Ice
Donald Miller - A Million Miles in a Thousand Years
Mitch Albom - Have a Little Faith
C.S. Lewis - The Magician's Nephew
F. Scott Fitzgerald - The Great Gatsby
William Shakespeare - A Midsummer Night's Dream
Ivan Doig - Bucking the Sun
Penda Diakité - I Lost My Tooth in Africa
Grace Lin - The Year of the Rat
Oscar Hijuelos - Mr. Ives' Christmas
Madeline L'Engle - A Wrinkle in Time
Steven Hart - The Last Three Miles
David Sedaris - Me Talk Pretty One Day
Karen Armstrong - The Spiral Staircase
Charles Larson - The Portland Murders
Adrian Wojnarowski - The Miracle of St. Anthony
William H. Colby - Long Goodbye
Steven D. Stark - Meet the Beatles
Phil Stanford - Portland Confidential
Rick Moody - Garden State
Jonathan Schwartz - All in Good Time
David Sedaris - Dress Your Family in Corduroy and Denim
Anthony Holden - Big Deal
Robert J. Spitzer - The Spirit of Leadership
James McManus - Positively Fifth Street
Jeff Noon - Vurt
Road Work
Miles run year to date: 21
At this date last year: 52
Total run in 2012: 129
In 2011: 113
In 2010: 125
In 2009: 67
In 2008: 28
In 2007: 113
In 2006: 100
In 2005: 149
In 2004: 204
In 2003: 269
Comments (62)
Forget it, Jack. It's Stumptown.
Posted by ER | March 23, 2010 7:05 AM
Maybe it was a PDC whistle blower being hushed up.
Posted by Ben | March 23, 2010 7:13 AM
Can't the cops be trained to not kill people at 3 pm in a public park?
Geeze this is getting to be really scary.
Posted by Portland Native | March 23, 2010 7:23 AM
I just left this comment on an Oregonian story about the shooting:
It's ridiculous that the Portland Police Bureau is taking an entire day to release any details about the killing. This makes it look -- and probably it's true -- that they're more concerned with getting their story straight than serving the public interest.
"Protect and serve." Question is: who is the PPB protecting, and who are they serving? I'd say, not the public. It's also disturbing that the Oregonian is so passive, apparently meekly taking whatever info the PPB dishes out rather than doing any independent reporting.
Posted by Brian | March 23, 2010 8:06 AM
Can't the cops be trained to not kill people...
The answer is quite simple - yes they can. But until there's a media that cares to report facts instead of parroting out the party line, a true police oversight board that can investigate at arm's length and subpeona witnesses, a DA's office that will investigate and prosecute officer committed crimes, a city council that isn't afraid of the police union, and a citizenry that really cares, it won't happen.
And sadly, this sort of thing will happen again.
Posted by John Rettig | March 23, 2010 8:10 AM
It is wrong and so obvious that they are spending all this time with their "story".
what ever happened to free press and the right to know.
who did they kill now...and why?
Posted by Sara | March 23, 2010 8:46 AM
Asking what happened at the arboretum, reminds me of asking when we eat? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LX3ygBCVbpA
Posted by Bad Brad | March 23, 2010 8:48 AM
asking the cops why it takes time for facts to be released is reasonable, although i doubt you would be satisfied with the answer that you would get about the investigative process.
Posted by peebody | March 23, 2010 9:03 AM
On television shows, the police claim they're not releasing information until they've informed the family of the death. Any chance this is the explanation?
Posted by Kai Jones | March 23, 2010 9:10 AM
I admit that I've watched a few live cop shows. These cops from other states and countries are shown apprehending sometimes violent and aggressive people that frankly probably would have been shot at had it been Portland. Portland Police are trained to kill, if they pull the trigger they are applying deadly force.
Posted by Scott | March 23, 2010 9:13 AM
Scott Westermann is already out in front of this releasing information to the Tribune and KPAM. He said the man had a knife ("I have seen it") and that the police officer was in "full retreat". Nice work Scott, way to set the stage. Why is Westermann given access to the investigation?
Posted by cbb | March 23, 2010 9:24 AM
I have heard that they don't have positive ID, so next of kin have not been notified. But I agree with Jack, they are in full dress rehersal for their performance in front of the grand jury. Sad to know that they can shoot a guy with a knife (at 20-30 feet away I guess) with two shots, then pause and then finish him off with two more shots. A knife versus a cop with a semi-auto handgun. But PPB are always innocent.
Posted by Harry | March 23, 2010 9:38 AM
Tueller's drill
Personal Safety Expert Professor Arthur Cohen introduced me to the concept known as Tueller's drill. It is a drill which shows that most people can cover 21 feet in about 1.5 seconds.
Sgt. Dennis Tueller of Salt Lake City Police Department conducted experiments which let to the conclusion that an attacker with a knife in his hand covers 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. Therefore anything under 21 feet is considered to be in the zone of "imminent danger of death or great bodily harm."
In other words a person with a knife or any edged weapon is a direct and imminent threat to you if that person is within 21 feet (7 yards).
Research shows that a person with a knife who is closer than 7 yards can stab or cut you before you can stop them with a gun.
Most police officers, even with the gun already in hand, cannot hit a target twice before the "assailant" can cover 10 yards.
Posted by mp97303 | March 23, 2010 9:54 AM
You're a real font of police propaganda, aren't you? Isn't there an episode of "Matlock" you're missing?
Posted by Jack Bog | March 23, 2010 9:59 AM
rumor has it that they're trying to locate the "unknown individual" that happened to be
nearby with a cellphone and recorded it all and then took a dash down the trail as the other copters arrived. they want this film footage and may hope to intimidate the citizen from sharing what they have, as it's needed for the "official investigation" (get it? wink! wink!)
Posted by I know a secret, yeh! yeh! | March 23, 2010 10:10 AM
If you know the person with the video, tell them we'd love to host it.
Posted by Jack Bog | March 23, 2010 10:12 AM
Maybe we need a PPB Youtube channel?
Posted by Jon | March 23, 2010 10:15 AM
The reaction time from recognition to action is about 3/4 second. I really am doubtful, particularly when at least 2 officers would likely have the suspect covered, that a shot or two from a Glock would not be rendered. If the suspect is hit, he would not continue running but be thrown back, or other reaction to the energy of the bullet.
Besides, where is the suspect going to actually stab the officer with any deadly results? The wear body armor.
Posted by Lawrence | March 23, 2010 10:21 AM
The employment application test used by the City of Portland Police Department should work to exclude all persons seeking the job for personal or financial reasons.
Being cursed to it would be appropriate and acceptable.
Posted by Abe | March 23, 2010 10:47 AM
Lawrence
Real life isn't like the movies. Getting shot doesn't send you flying backwards. Check out the tv show Mythbusters for the proof.
They wear ballistic body armor which stops some bullets. It has NO effect on knives.
Posted by mp97303 | March 23, 2010 10:52 AM
Still nothing from PC Rosie-fingered Sizer? Has it not dawned upon her that she reigns over the wine-dark secrets? No progress since this:
http://bojack.org/2010/02/chief_rosie_repeats_the_mantra.html#comments
Posted by Gardiner Menefree | March 23, 2010 11:06 AM
There is a classic photo from WWI by Robert Capa clearly showing a soldier at the moment of being shot throwing his rifle back and flying backwards:
http://designblog.uniandes.edu.co/blogs/dise2616/files/2008/11/robert-capa.jpg
It's Physics: Action- reaction.
You have a point about knife protection, but some vests do offer extra protection. They all offer some protection, especially if it's a slashing attack.
What Portland uses I don't know.
Posted by Lawrence | March 23, 2010 11:25 AM
That's presumably the reason they had to shoot Aaron Campbell in the back.
Posted by darrelplant | March 23, 2010 11:40 AM
Now we know the person charged at the office with a knife. So what was the officer supposed to do, freeze time with their super powers and disarm him?
Posted by mp97303 | March 23, 2010 11:55 AM
Remember, if an officer sees the knife, it's too late.
Posted by none | March 23, 2010 12:12 PM
On Channel 12's website, it is reported that the deceased not only had a knife, but emerged from a bathroom covered with blood. Suicide by PPB? Crazy guy? Drugs/alcohol? And it does seem interesting that they'be put the call out for witnesses who left before they could be interviewed. They were probably worried about being shot and decided to skedaddle out of there.
Posted by umpire | March 23, 2010 12:38 PM
Lawrence - That Capa 'Falling Soldier" photo is from 1936, the era of the Spanish Civil War, not WW1, and most serious folks who have investigated it have concluded that Capa staged it. It's probably fake. So much for this demonstration of Newton's Laws.
Posted by Morbius | March 23, 2010 12:39 PM
The video, if it exists, may cast some light.
Posted by Lawrence | March 23, 2010 12:40 PM
Whose blood was on the dead man? His own? Someone else's?
Perhaps there is a victim of a knife attack lying dead in a Washington Park squat?
Posted by none | March 23, 2010 12:45 PM
Oh, I don't know about that. From PBS's "American Masters":
Posted by darrelplant | March 23, 2010 12:55 PM
An X-ACTO knife?
Posted by darrelplant | March 23, 2010 1:23 PM
Derrelplant - That was Whelan's conclusion in 1995. The discussion continues, and a 2007 Spanish documentary found an alleged eyewitness who said he saw the 'victim' die behind a tree (no tree in Capa's shot) 35km away. See, for example:
http://photo.net/street-documentary-photography-forum/00HUWz
The fact that the guy shows up happy & alive on Capa's contact sheet in frames numbered after the famous shot also speaks for a fake. But the fakery is not my main point - the allegation of Newtonian laws blowing a gunshot victim backwards violently was. A shot capable of knocking the guy back five feet would have done even more to the guy firing the gun, even if the bullet did not go through the victim (thus not transferring all of the kinetic energy.) But both are small points & I have no time to debate them with monomaniacs. I'm sorry the PDX guy is dead, but at least he seems to have been white, so we'll be spared the parade of dubious characters claiming Blacks are singled out - The cops are equal-opportunity shooters, and they are not always in the wrong. The delay in releasing info & privileged access for Cop union folks is ridiculous, though, & feeds the anti-Cop frenzy.
Posted by Morbius | March 23, 2010 1:28 PM
"Besides, where is the suspect going to actually stab the officer with any deadly results? They wear body armor"
Yes they do. Kevlar on the upper torso. Body armor is worn under the uniform shirt. It does not protect the jugular vein, the lower femoral artery, major arteries in the wrist,or the eyes. A blade is a blade. It cuts stuff.
Posted by BobM | March 23, 2010 1:38 PM
Right. The officer had to kill him because his Exacto knife was so dangerous at 20 feet.
Yet another execution of a distraught mentally disabled person who posed no real threat, which we will again be told was in full conformance to PPB policy and training.
Sign the recall!
Posted by dyspeptic | March 23, 2010 2:03 PM
"If the suspect is hit, he would not continue running but be thrown back, or other reaction to the energy of the bullet".
Thats a good one. Talk about too much tv.
There may not be a great number of police officers killed by knives in any given year, but there are a significant number of officers killed with their own firearms after being overpowered by a deranged or angry suspect who came after the officer.
Posted by Gibby | March 23, 2010 2:16 PM
has anyone done a dig on Officer Jason Walters yet? The killer of unknown man (the
would-be X-Acto Knife Killer, as labeled by the cops!) surely has a background worth the digging. Never know what nuggets are found till ya dig. I'm going to do a Google on him now...
Posted by the Googler | March 23, 2010 2:33 PM
"An X-ACTO knife?"
Yeah, and I have know several people who are missing the tips of their fingers due to x acto knives. They can do a lot of damage really fast.
Posted by mp97303 | March 23, 2010 2:35 PM
However the final result of the dissipation of kinetic energy turns out, it has to be accounted for, perhaps slowing down the forward motion or stopping it altogether. The Fallen Soldier may have been off balance, the energy exacerbating the effect of the shot.
At any rate Newton still holds. The devil is in the details.
Posted by Lawrence | March 23, 2010 2:48 PM
Oh, you could certainly do some damage with an X-ACTO knife — used them for a quarter century of graphics arts work — and you could probably plunge one of the ones with a thin handle in several inches in short order. But it's not what I'd choose for an attack weapon.
I keep hearing this used as a justification for officers having to shoot people before they get close enough to take their guns, but it's starting to sound like it might not be safer to just have the cops not carry guns if their only option for controlling a suspect is shooting them.
Posted by darrelplant | March 23, 2010 3:09 PM
Nobody should suggest the cop isn't allowed to defend himself against an aggressive person looking to cause injury, but WTF ... they didn't have a beanbag gun like the officer on the MAX platform? They didn't have a car to climb back into (presumably with the windows rolled up)? They couldn't shoot the guy in the legs or hit him with a nightstick?
Posted by Mike (the other one) | March 23, 2010 3:28 PM
Tis claim by Weston is based on a memory of his having seen the sheet at some distant time in the past and not on a copy of anything that's publicly available or verifiable. Not really much of a "fact."
Fake or real, the picture doesn't show someone being "thrown back" by a shot as the original person who brought it up claimed. The guy's just falling backward.
Posted by darrelplant | March 23, 2010 3:31 PM
Lawrence - This repetition is getting boring - if a .30-'06 bullet goes through someone (say 180 grains, c. 2,900 ft-lb), most of its kinetic energy flies off with it, & victim falls whichever direction his CG + inertia dictate. Even if stopped by bone in the body, it won't knock the guy five feet, for the same reason the guy pulling the trigger didn't get knocked back five feet when he fired. At this scale, Newton rules, & the facts are in the formulas. Now, why are we having this discussion? I'm going out on the patio for a beer.
(At the risk of prolonging this, I will admit that when I was young & even more foolish, I had been told that a pilot of a P-47 firing a burst from the aircraft's 8 - .50 caliber machine guns would experience a loss of 5 kts IAS. I later came to know an ex-Jug pilot who said he'd experienced no such speed loss, but he knew from experience that such a burst would drop a Japanese General at a latrine. "Drop" was his word, not "knock into the next prefecture," but I bet the bullets went right through with minimal transfer of kinetic energy. For what it's worth, he said they were told that a prolonged burst of all 8 .50s in the top 1/3 of an empty boxcar might derail the car, but he never tried it under controlled circumstances, or otherwise. And that's far more firepower & energy than the most macho cop has access to.)
Posted by Morbius | March 23, 2010 3:39 PM
"Maybe it was a PDC whistle blower being hushed up."
Sam's just happy they didn't catch him walking out of the bathroom with the guy.
Posted by Steve | March 23, 2010 4:59 PM
The cop isn't shooting at boxcars.
The Spainiard is falling backward after being shot, ok? Maybe he was thrown back. Maybe not. I did a swag on that photo. The bottom line is "sensitive dependence on initial conditions".
Right. Boring. Ferget it.
Posted by Lawrence | March 23, 2010 5:12 PM
"The Spainiard [sic] is falling backward after being shot, ok?"
Ooooh! Is Big Lawrence going to beat me up if I don't agree about some Commie's 70-year old photo? I'm shaking in my boots! Jeez - Get a Life. (And maybe learn some physics. Or spelling.) A Swag???
Posted by Morbius | March 23, 2010 5:54 PM
Its not like this dude was a productive member of society... He should of known not to bring a knife to a gunfight.....
Posted by Machine | March 23, 2010 6:10 PM
I don't care if you agree or not. And the photo is 73+ years old. Do your math.
SWAG : Scientific Wild-*ss*d Guess.
Look it up.
I see no evidence that supports his being a "Commie":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Capa
Machine:
I'm sure the dude wasn't expecting a gunfight.
Posted by Lawrence | March 23, 2010 7:03 PM
Funny how some constantly complain about the police, but those same complainers would not hesitate to call the police if their lives or friends and families were in danger.....
Posted by Machine | March 23, 2010 8:18 PM
Really? If someone I knew was in the midst of a serious mental health crisis, the LAST THING I WOULD DO is call the Portland police. They don't know what they're doing and would probably kill the person in trouble.
Posted by Jack Bog | March 23, 2010 8:22 PM
Funny how some constantly complain about the police, but those same complainers would not hesitate to call the police if their lives or friends and families were in danger.
Last I looked, the Portland Police had a monopoly racket going. So I would call them only because I have no other choices, not because they are my preferred service provider.
And the fact that people still call them is no reason to not expect better of them.
Posted by John Rettig | March 23, 2010 9:12 PM
For those making fun of "its an X-acto knife", I'm in the business of using their products. There are several forms, from the small pencil type with numerous types of blades that can be inserted to the wood handle kind (more of an mat cutting instrument) with a 4" blade. All of them I wouldn't want to deal with, and can critically wound and kill someone. Some of my friends in the boat building business do serious wood cutting of hardwoods with X-acto knives. Don't think X-actos are a pen knife. Plus, it wasn't so long ago that a violent killing occurred using even a pen knife.
Posted by Lee | March 23, 2010 9:16 PM
We're making big progress in accuracy - moving from mislabeling the Capa photo as WW1, to nitpicking a seven-decade rounding to "73+ years - do the math," and all in one short evening. And if Wikipedia doesn't say so, well, it just can't be so! "SWAG" sounds like such a sound system on the face of it, I see no need to look it up. This new approach to history sounds a lot easier than that old, fact-based one. I'm sure these new techniques will be useful in sorting out the Police incident. Thanks!
Posted by Morbius | March 23, 2010 9:19 PM
I labeled it as WWII, or so I thought.
Typo, fella, typo. I back space frequently.
As for Capa, I have strong reasons to believe Wiki and American Masters and not you. This isn't the place to go into it.
I'm done here with this OT.
Posted by Lawrence | March 23, 2010 10:11 PM
I have ZERO sympathy for someone who charges at a cop with a knife, no matter the size. Based on the facts known so far, the guy deserved to get shot. I feel bad for his family but what happened was completely within his control. If he wanted to live, he should have obeyed the cop and not charged after him. If he had done that, he would be alive...pure and simple.
Posted by babcock | March 23, 2010 10:14 PM
Yet another execution of a distraught mentally disabled person who posed no real threat,
The report says he was covered in blood. He was a threat to someone.
Posted by Jon | March 23, 2010 10:24 PM
The police union has to realize that their insistence on a day or longer to get the story straight only feeds the suspicion that they are out of control & their behavior can't stand daylight. In some cases it clearly can't, but good cops will suffer needlessly because of these tactics.
Posted by Morbius | March 24, 2010 12:39 AM
Just like Chasse and Campbell, Poot, James, etc, etc, the idea that this guy was so immanently dangerous that he had to be killed is ridiculous. We all know that 99 out of 100 experienced bartenders could have talked this guy into an ambulance. It is not asking too much of our armed peace keepers and protectors to demonstrate crisis response skills at least as good as a bartender.
Posted by dyspeptic | March 24, 2010 2:05 AM
The Capa Photo was the Spanish Civil War, not WWI.
Don't know if that was already pointed out.
Posted by Jennifer | March 24, 2010 8:27 AM
but good cops will suffer needlessly because of these tactics.
There are good ones? Interesting, everyone seems to be lumping them all together.
the idea that this guy was so immanently dangerous that he had to be killed is ridiculous.
You really think that's what was going through the cops' minds? They HAD to die?
Posted by Jon | March 24, 2010 11:52 AM
Thanks, Jennifer - I had pointed that out in my post, which appears two posts above yours, but that part was edited out by the Keeper, to protect the tender feelings of Lawrence.
Posted by Morbius | March 24, 2010 12:45 PM
By the way, speaking of photographic reality, if you haven't viewed the image obtained from "[a] search of the state court database" and described as "a snapshot of a man," then you really should pause and do so immediately:
http://blogs.wweek.com/news/2010/03/24/id-released-of-man-shot-by-police-in-hoyt-arboretum/#comments
Posted by Gardiner Menefree | March 24, 2010 7:20 PM
As you said, not a snapshot, but an extraordinary portrait.
Worthy of an Arnold Newman or a Richard Avedon.
Thanks for the link.
Posted by Lawrence | March 24, 2010 9:27 PM