I didn't even use the IP Address information that Jack posted... I only used information supplied by Mark himself to identify him. Anyone could have figured it out if they wanted to.

Not to mention he was 'outed' over a year ago by someone else, but he continues to use the same pseudonym, so he didn't really care about being anonymous.

Michael, despite your excellent sleuthing, I'm going to take back what we know about "Torrid." He's a jerk on the internet, but he has a family, and perhaps he just needs to think things over a bit rather than get himself fired.

But I so love the fact that he lives in freakin' METZGER.

No problem, I replied while you were removing the comments... So go ahead and remove that one too.

Have a nice night!

No, I think the world should know his real first name.

Correction: He may not live in 97223 (Metzger).

Bog: Michael, despite your excellent sleuthing, I'm going to take back what we know about "Torrid." He's a jerk on the internet, but he has a family, and perhaps he just needs to think things over a bit rather than get himself fired.
JK: He is probably doing it as part of his job promoting how wonderful their plans for us are. The bottom line is that these guys are social engineers trying to force their religion (a life style prescription is a relegion) down our throats and hurting every Portlander in the process.
They are responsible for us wasting BILLIONS in traffic congestion.
They are responsible for our shortage of school money.
They are responsible for those crappy row houses and condo towers.
They are responsible for our unemployment being well above the national average - so they have put lots of people out of work.

Hope they ALL get fired. (they could get jobs doing honest work in the private sector)

Bog: But I so love the fact that he lives in freakin' METZGER.
JK: He can't stand the city he helps shape. Of course he is in good company - some of the most famous figures in the smart growth movement live on large lots OUTSIDE of the cities.

Thanks
JK

I don't mind Torrid's posts, even though I disagree with many of them. But I do mind my tax dollars paying for his time to post. That is criminal. And the City Commissioner of the Fire Bureau, Erik Sten should investigate (publically) and fire him.

Torrid= MarkDaMan=Daphne?

They are responsible for us wasting BILLIONS in traffic congestion.
They are responsible for our shortage of school money.
They are responsible for those crappy row houses and condo towers.
They are responsible for our unemployment being well above the national average - so they have put lots of people out of work.

Yeah, one guy is responsible for all that.

Come on, Jack, I'm not going to give you a "hard time" about picking on one individual whose actions may or may not have warranted it, but you had to realize that, sooner or later, it was going to devolve into public servant bashing.

Hope they ALL get fired. (they could get jobs doing honest work in the private sector)

Why don't you tell us how you really feel?

Thanks to that last line, Mr. Karlock, I will be skipping your future posts. How about you taking a public sector job? Then you could find out how it feels to have grumpy old codgers assume you 1) don't know how to do your job, 2) don't do your job, 3) are just "part of the problem" when you work your arse off for ungrateful schmucks like yourself who don't have a clue.

To think I have always wanted to devote my life to public service. People like you make me want to be a lawyer. (No offense intended, Jack.) I could make real money and not have to put up with such ignorant BS.

Love his accusation of "petulance".
Coming from such an expert on the subject it carries special significance.
As for anything "fitting a pattern" - QED.
How about asking Randy Leonard to look into Fire Bureau policy on the subject of his workplace internet use.

ellie,

Oh, please.
Go into the public sector.
You've already got the "victim mentality" down pat. You seem to believe that public employees are entitled to immunity from public scrutiny. What part of public don't you get?

You seem to believe that public employees are entitled to immunity from public scrutiny.

Really? That's news to me. You're trying to read my mind now, are you? I'm afraid your psychic skills have failed.

What part of public don't you get?

Apparently I don't get your part - or Mr. Karlock's. I don't treat public servants in general as scapegoats and verbal punching bags for my own inadequacies. But that's just me.

I've kinda enjoyed seeing myself gain tolerance, (I wonder if that's the same as wisdom), in seeing Torrid Joe gain tolerance, over the years of his moderating chirpiness.

I even consult Loaded Orygun sporadically. I take back all the despicable things I think of 'that voice,' about halfway. About halfway take back half the things. (I find it saves me some brain strain when I simply and only consider a commenter personality to be a voice. Then I'm not thinking is it a he or a she, young or old, sincere or troll, and all the other mindscrews that jail open-minded unprejudiced reading. For a long time I thought Kari Chisolm was a she -- now I don't think about it, just read the voice's words. And wince.)

But however anyway considering the comments drifting against the fence of public scrutiny of public employees, this voice (he, post-senile, pre-infantile) proposes to deflect the drift toward a completely different subject for the same he-serves-at-our-pleasure object. Wha'...? I mean: W. ha!

Read WMR - Wayne Madsen Report (dot COM) daily.

June 1, 2006 -- Rocky shoals for Bush marriage? Informed sources Inside the Beltway report that First Lady Laura Bush has established temporary residence in the Mayflower Hotel in Washington, DC as a result of a tiff with President Bush over an extramarital relationship involving her husband. Mr. Bush's tryst is said to involve Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. It is not known how long Mrs. Bush plans to remain at the Mayflower, however, her security detail has been present at the hotel during hours when the First Lady would normally be residing in the White House. While she was National Security Adviser, Rice, who has never been married, referred to George W. Bush as "my husband" before she corrected herself and said, "the president." Rice was speaking at a dinner when she made her "husband" remarks.
WMR is tracking the Laura Bush story.

Speaking of daily, is Kos & Donkey Cohorts like blewOregon (retrodepressives) tracking this ... just asking.

As a public employee who on rare occasion has commented on blogs from a work computer (while on a break, of course), I actually agree with some of the commentary. I don't think Joe needs to be fired, but employers should look hard at their policies on this issue. It's a growing issue.

I do mind my tax dollars paying for his time to post.

Did you know he was posting similar troll-like comments for months on the excellent Seattle blog: www.soundpolitics.com?

Funny, huh?

On another topic related to this one, I've always found Tenskwatawa to be incomprehensible. So, imagine my pleasure to read this piece of pure poetry above:

...comments drifting against the fence of public scrutiny ...

Mark Bunster has baited me on an anonymous basis for a year or more. Today was my last day on that program.

Bunster reportedly lives in Lake Oswego. It figures.

Lake Grove.

When did this blog get this small?

You mean small minded? When Jack decided he had to out or ban posters whom he disagreed with.

There are always anonymizing services.

The guy's a troll. I spend too much of my life dealing with trolls and spammers. Some days running a blog with comments is like being a men's room attendant at Pioneer Courthouse Square. Since he did such a lousy job of concealing his identity, he was an easy target. He wouldn't take a hint, so now we're all on to the next phase.

And if you don't like it here, please go away and don't come back.

And if you don't like it here, please go away and don't come back.

That pretty much sums up the difference between the public and private sectors. If I have a bad experience shopping at Target, I don't have to go back. Ever. A jerk at a wine shop wouldn't let my wife use the bathroom...I've never bought another bottle there (and I buy a lot of wine). Have a bad experience in a restaurant? There's lots of restaurants to choose from. I can get my tires from Les Schwab, or Sears.

Government, though...we've got the market cornered, at least on some stuff. The people I deal with as a city employee --I collect money from 'em-- don't have a lot of choice. Actually...they pretty much have none. We put a lien on their property, and when they pay we take it off. A simple enough transaction, but the power of government is a lot about compelling behavior from those we "serve." Sometimes people yell at us. Sometimes we deserve it. Mostly, though, its people yelling at the wrong people, the clerk who had as much say in setting policy as the sales clerk at Target. I'm a little higher up the food chain, so I'm the go-to guy when someone wants to yell. But I've learned to be patient, and empathetic. But never indifferent. People sense when you're just "hearing them out." You have to really listen. And sometimes, when you can, make things better.

It makes me sad when people bash public employees as a group. As a city employee for 26 years, I've seen a lot of folks come and go. And, like in any organization, I've seen the range of personalities, from the lazy and incompetent, to the ambitious, hardworking, and criminal. It takes all kinds to make a world, y'know? In the main, though, most city employees I've known take their obligation to serve our "customers" --the public-- as a very special and important responsibility. Customer Service isn't --shouldn't-- be about the bottom line, or other "market signals." Sometimes we need to spend time on a problem, or an issue, that's a "loss leader," that's more about justice then expediency.

Years ago I used to post from work regularly on a neigborhood listserve. I was encouraged to do so as a way to keep a dialogue going with our citizens. Administrations and politicians change though, and times can get tough for the outspoken. The line between "working for the city" and being seen as a "spokesman" gets really tricky. I've always posted with my name because, really, that's all I represent (besides, a nom de guerre like "Zorro" just seems a little too precious).

It's going to take time to figure this out. Like the introduction of cell phones, there will be abuse, over-use, and "outraged" citizens who'll take offense that every single working moment of every single city employee isn't spent serving them. This is neither criticism nor defense of the city employee in question who I neither know, nor particularly care about. I try to keep my posts here to the 3am slot. But that's just me. I appreciate the opportunity to be here, and hope we don't throw up more walls between citizens and government. And those of us in government...well, we're citizens too.

At first I was offended at TJ/BuckmanBacker/etc's outing. Then I Googled his name and found that he's been out of the City Hall closet for over a year.

Jack - gracias, amigo.

I wish I still lived in Lake Grove (I used to, before moving to SW Portland)...My property taxes were much cheaper (on a per/$1000 basis), the schools were better, and residential burgulary was almost unheard of. PLUS: Nobody ever asked me for spare change while I was shopping in downtown Oswego.

Mark Bunster loves to defend Portland's progressive policies: he just can't stand to pay for them!

>When did this blog get this small?
>
>You mean small minded? When Jack decided
>he had to out or ban posters whom he
>disagreed with.

As long as Iv'e been here it has always been Jack's Blog....he writes the articles (Posted by Jack at...). But the comments are mostly other people. It is kinda like a partnership: without his posts, us commenteers would have nothing to comment about, and without us commenteers, his blog would only be half as interesting (imnsho). I like the comments, but the Blog owner can dictate the terms and conditions, just like Macy's. I can always shop elsewhere.

Jack writes: "The guy's a troll. I spend too much of my life dealing with trolls and spammers."

Spammers I know, but what is the definition of a Troll? I know some trollers use bait, but do I become a troll if I bait somebody now and then? How about sarcasm, am I a troll if I reply with caustic sarcasm or over the edge irony? Can Indies comment here?...or is this just the playground for Demos who are just left of center versus the really out there lefties? ...so Repubs, center-right or the VastRWConspiracy need not apply?

Maybe a troll is somebody who has managed to bother Jack enough to get banned (kinda like a time out, which wasn't so bad, so I shopped elsewhere for week, no biggie). If so, then a troll is somebody who Jack "knows 'em when he sees em", eh? Kinda like the Supreme Court Justice who wrote something similar after studying a Playboy magazine a bit too long in his Judges Chambers.

This is what it comes to, huh? You disagree with a person's politics, so you out them, make their name public (so that anybody can find out where they live) and try to get them fired from their job? That's your idea of political discourse?

I call that fascism.

I've never tried to hide my identity, and the result is that I get death threats and harrassing phone calls and people who vandalize my car and then send me anonymous notes afterwards bragging about the fact. I get people filing false complaints to the police, accusing me of soliciting sex from minors. So I generally respect others like Torrid (and even my obnxious, hateful righty trolls) when they choose to maintain their own anonymity.

Your desire to punish private citizens for their politics is truly sickening. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

I see a lot of complaining and finger pointing here, not many suggestions. Portland is like this blog: you can leave if you don't like it.

JK: Seriously, if the 'social engineers' (cause all public employees fall into this category, right?) are the problem, what's the solution?

See link for City Rules.

Oops.

Here it is:

http://www.portlandonline.com/shared/cfm/image.cfm?id=12209

From that link, one of the prohibited uses is:
Use of city information technologies for political activity or in a manner that would directly or indirectly assist a campaign for election of any person to any office, or for the promotion of or opposition to any ballot proposition. This prohibition shall not apply to the use of City computer or network resources for the development or delivery of a neutral and objective presentation of facts relevant to a ballot proposition as allowed by state law, provided that such use must be a part of the normal and regular conduct of the employees developing or delivering the presentation of facts.

That is a pretty broad exclusion. "Indirectly" assisting a campaign would seem to be fairly normal for posting on a blog like Jack's.

"It makes me sad when people bash public employees as a group. As a city employee for 26 years, I've seen a lot of folks come and go. And, like in any organization, I've seen the range of personalities, from the lazy and incompetent, to the ambitious, hardworking, and criminal. It takes all kinds to make a world, y'know?"

Is this the attitude that prevails among public employees? Is the relative anonymity of a large public sector organization (pick one) a safe repository for this sort of go-along, get-along mentality? Is the security blanket of union protection a warm, dark place to hide from public scrutiny? Does their job description include the admonition to overlook the laziness, incompetence or criminality? of their fellow employees? No wonder we have to tolerate mediocrity. It's an entitlement! If "...its people yelling at the wrong people...", it may be because the "right" (read those actually responsible) are hiding behind some poor schmuck(s). How much institutional resistance is there to weeding out those bad apples? Lot's, I'd guess. And little reward for those who try. That's the culture of any bureaucracy - but this one works for US - so why not demand better?

While it may "...(take) all kinds to make a world..." that doesn't mean I have to silently put up with some of those kinds working for me. Even though public employees can't be directly fired by their ultimate employers, they have no more right to be insulated from accountability than private sector folks. Maybe less. Anyone who went into the public sector expecting to be protected from criticism, warranted or otherwise, didn't do their homework.

As for this blog being "small", if you confuse your hurt feelings with fascism, or confuse public and private speech, then you're too confused to make such an allegation. Frank Dufay's got it just right about the public/private distinction.

You disagree with a person's politics, so you out them, make their name public (so that anybody can find out where they live) and try to get them fired from their job?

It's more than disagreeing with someone's politics. I've been dealing with "flamebait" from Mark Bunster and his many pseudonyms for many months. I've noted on this blog that he was a city employee, noted that he was commenting during business hours, and banned him a few times, but he wouldn't stop coming back and wouldn't stop commenting in a deliberately offensive manner. Yesterday I even told him I would out him unless he stopped. Nothing, it seems, would stop him but this. So it's done.

Normally, I don't care who my commenters are or where they're posting from. And of course they're going to disagree with me. But if they can't do so civilly, they're not welcome. And if they insult me repeatedly despite warnings, they'd better not be doing it on work time from a city job.

As for the chance that someone is going to go to Mark Bunster's home and try to do him harm over his blog postings, that's just ludicrous. He raised the issue of my residence yesterday, when he doesn't even live in Portland.

I think of my blog like I think of my house: guests are welcome, but I can kick you out if you piss me off. People who resort to such misguided analogies as saying a blogger is "facist" for wanting to keep his house under his rules are nothing more than hacks looking for any way to rally around their banned friends.

Here is the difference between this situation and, say, Nazi Germany:

Here, if you troll and upset the host, the host can say mean things about you and keep you off the site. Then, you can go back to your own blog and pout and write whatever you want.

There, if you don't tow the government line, they shoot you.

That's hardly what I would call equal.

If anything is "facist" on blogs, it is the pressure put forth to allow everyone with an opposing view unlimited bandwidth to rant or else get labelled as a Nazi for oppressing their free speech.

Anyone who challenges the Gaptooth Gospel of Portland Developer Welfare is a fascist, and will be kicked out of the progressive drum circle. (I think that's drumming they're doing...)

Thanks for "outing" TJ. You've just eliminated one less blog I read daily from my life - which is far to short to waste on this site anymore.

I'll also be removing your blog from the PNW Topic Hotlist aggregator service in favor on others that respect the privacy of bloggers and posters.

Awww, did I make da widdle pwogwessives mad at me?

Wow. Jack. Wow. Where did you get this behaviour? I feel like you are acting very small. First you ban Torrid Joe and then that Richard guy? You have absolutely every right to do whatever you want in your online presence, but it will have a sociological effect on others. I've read your blog for years, been a big fan of soul and r&b and loved your thoughts, have seven friends who have recently gone through LCLS whom I have always encouraged towards your classes...hmm...I dunno. All this recently has put a bad taste in my mouth...I would hope that your generous area for our debates and discussions would be able to hold alternating opinions; I'm sorry to see that that does not seem to be so. I think I'm going to take a nice long break from your blog. I do thank you for all you have written. Good luck.

Gee, Jack, I'm sure you're questioning your core beliefs and values as a result of this mass exodus. Such sensitive folks as pdxkona are bereft. Comments like those above, with their feigned concern and worry, simply demonstrate the inability of some people to distinguish reality from, what?, their personal surreality?

Just think... "...seven friends..."!!!

Awww, did I make da widdle pwogwessives mad at me?

Oooh - classy.

Wow. I can only assume that you're having some sort of paranoid episode, Jack. This is the type of behavior that we've come to expect from Bush and his cronies, not a respected blogger. Unless they've committed a crime, outing someone on the internet is
unethical and potentially dangerous. Not to mention totally uncool...

Scott: Please remember that TJ was outed on another blog almost a year ago, and he didn't change his name... So he must not have wanted to stay 'in the closet.' If it had been that big of a deal you think TJ would have got the other blog to take it down, or change the name he used.

Can you really blame Jack for outing someone, when they have already been out for a year?

""""Not to mention totally uncool... """"

Now you've done it Jack.
You've got the cool police after you.

What's a "sociological effect"?

I previously used my real name (first and last) at BlueOregon, but they didn't like my politics and suggested (based on my IP address) that I didn't even live in Oregon (which was bunk: I live in SW Portland).

Long story short: they banned my I.P. address, my real name, and my favorite alias. Now if I post there, I just pick some random name (and eveb then it's usually limited to a Starbucks or Big Town Hero)...The Big Tent on the progressive blogs is also getting smaller and smaller.

This is not some City of Portland socialist wi-fi operation. It is a private blog. If you post something I don't like, I have a very explicit comments policy that reserves the right to take it down.

If you insist on coming on here and anonymously arguing with me for hours, month after month, I will do what I can to get you to leave me alone. In the case of Mark Bunster of Lake Grove, Portland Fire Bureau Planning and Administrative Services section data analyst, revealing his true identity was a weapon of last resort. I explicitly gave Bunster a chance to back off, and he wouldn't.

Anyone who wants to express an opinion about the "coolness," "class," or "ethics" of repeating his real name (which has been circulating on the internet for many months) is free to do so here. But if it gets ugly, they're gone too.

What's done is done. Besides, Bunster has shown his Gen-X deep, progressive love for his Fire Bureau boss Erik Sten so enthusiastically, I'm sure it will all work out fine between the two of them.

"Thanks for "outing" TJ. You've just eliminated one less blog I read daily from my life - which is far to short to waste on this site anymore."

Well said!
Well, except for being just the teensiest bit incomprehensible.
Whatever.

Gullyborg wrote:

If anything is "facist" on blogs, it is the pressure put forth to allow everyone with an opposing view unlimited bandwidth to rant or else get labelled as a Nazi for oppressing their free speech.

Finally, Oregon's leading right-wing blogger and I agree on something.

A blog is not a public forum, and its host is not obligated to let you stick around - especially if you're constantly insulting people, using up all the oxygen, or generally pissing on the furniture.

Over at BlueOregon, I tend to err on the side of letting people spout off - but I've banned (or tried to ban) about 8-10 folks that wouldn't let conversations develop. They were compelled to answer every comment with one of their own - drowning out other voices. Probably 1/3 of those on the left, and 2/3 on the right. It's got nothing to do with ideology, and everything to do with behavior.

Finally, Oregon's leading right-wing blogger and I agree on something.

Leading right wing blogger, Kari...with a link to Neil Young? If that's "right wing" then maybe I don't know my ass from my elbow either, let alone my left from right.

And, sorry, I still don't get this anonymity thing. If what's-his-face assumed multiple identities to harangue the crowd here, and harass the host, dont you think that's sort of weird? Who chose him to be the irrepressible all-knowing truth-teller? Speak truth to power...but not as a guest in someone's living room, peeing on the furniture. I don't see anything "progressive" about that at all. Just seems obnoxious and self-defeating.

And, hey rickyragg, as for your Is this the attitude that prevails among public employees? Is the relative anonymity of a large public sector organization (pick one) a safe repository for this sort of go-along, get-along mentality? Is the security blanket of union protection a warm, dark place to hide from public scrutiny?

That's sorta cool...I don't think I've ever been accused of being a "go-along, get-along" type before. Maybe I was being too wistfull, but my point was you've got incompetents and crooks in every orhanization, private sector or public. I just hate seeing public employee bashing based on stereotyping. And I think public employees get more --not less--scrutiny than most, and way beyond the "union-protected" ranks (and is there something wrong with union --or Civil Service--protection, anyway?) At will employees have a hard time saying no --or the truth-- to their political bosses, which is a prime ingredient for cronyism and duplicity on the part of government.

My point, not to belabor this to death, is that, yes we in the public sector have a different relationship to our customers...who have to shop with us. I think that puts an extra burden on us to not just be good service providers, but be advocates for the public good. We don't just report to the chain of command, we have to report to the people who really do pay our salaries...which can be a difficult dance sometimes.

Frank D,

I simply felt your comment raised the issue of "silent compliance" a (perhaps) too common attitude among civil servants. If the good guys enable the bad guys then where are we? The presence of "...incompetents and crooks..." in the private sector doesn't justify their presence in the public sector. Nor does it preclude the possibility that we can do better.

Does it?

The union comment was added because public employee unions have different "customers" than you do. Thus unions have a greatly reduced (if any) "burden" re the "public good" and, to the degree that that different loyalty generates protection (or insulation) for those folks not nimble enough to "dance" as well as you do, yes, that's something wrong. A discussion of the value or lack thereof of unions, public or otherwise, isn't "bashing" - it's just a discussion. It's not like cartoons of Mohammed, I hope.

In a way, public employee bashing is a "perfect storm" situation; you've got a fair share of unreasonable citizens who'll never be satisfied and lay all blame at your feet, while the natural, human reaction to that sort of treatment is to stereotype your "customers" to some degree. Add in the "...incompetents and crooks...", the unions' position as, essentially, an adversary to the "customers", some genuine public scrutiny and concern, and, voila!

I don't know how you do it.

I don't know how you do it.

There's no easy answer. You work with the unions to get them to help you improve employee performance...its in everyone's best interest, including marginal employees. You honestly go after the crooked, and protect the whistle-blowers who are so important to accomplishing this. And you keep the dividing line that protects the bureaucrats from the whims --and corruptions-- of the politicians (why we have civil service in the first place, as a reaction against cronyism). And you have more accountability for everyone...including the electeds. (And, no, the ballot box is not an adequate accountability tool.)

In the meantime, give citizens and neighborhoods real power in the system, not just lots of meetings to go to.

Let's try that again:

Frank - I was quoting Gullyborg, not Jack.

You know, the guy whose motto is "Armed with a 12 gauge, a six-pack, a J.D., and the TRUTH, Gullyborg launches a relentless crusade for conservatism..."

Got it Kari...misread your post.

Gosh? Just point here:
http://groups.google.com/group/or.politics

There are some folks there that think it is THEIR space and are skilled at using bandwidth as an attack method to assert that control. Some consumers might even work for the city, which is either a good thing or a bad thing depending on perspective. Consult "Hunting and Gathering in the Corporate [correction: Government] Tribe" for guidance.

The cure for any misgiving over the host's arbitrary power over comments here is to go live in that OTHER world for a while. (Go forth and Colonize; as this territory here is already claimed by the owner.)

Getting back to the heart of the "public employee bashing" thing -- I don't think folk's are getting what Frank was trying to say. Public employees are people, regular people just like all the people who work for private companies. In other words, the normal curve still applies...

And, no amount of wishing, hoping, wanting, will make it not.

Unloading on front-line staff -- whether they are, as in my personal experience, a teenager at the counter at Jack in the Box, or the clerk who takes your check at the City of Portland, bureau of whatever... doesn't get you a Zorro exemption.

I still remember the first time I experinced such a zero-zorro -- I was seventeen, it was 1 am, and the guy was pissed because he had to wait, in his opinion, too long for his Bonus Jack. And, he believed in holding folks accountable. And, he had a machete in his car. We (the staff of teenagers) had to lock ourselves into the storage room.

So, years beyond 17, I don't laugh when I hear that someone has been threatening my husband and his staff with "Oklahoma".

That's where thoughtless public employee bashing goes. In my experience.

Interesting discussion but I'm puzzled by the logic of some who seem to believe that a personal blog is a public square with no behavior limits allowed. Having also had some experience in the public sector I'll be surprised (and frightened) if the individual who is the subject of all this isn't reprimanded for using public resources to further political points. Given the prevailing attitude in PDX local government I guess I should be frightened.

Now, Kari, please, a "...right-wing blogger..."? Has the Democratic party in this part of the world gone that far to the sinister? Please tell us this is progressive humor.

Frank, interesting points but do you have both an employee's union and civil service in your workplace? If so, it seems a bit redundant (and costly) since one of the purposes of civil service is to provide an impartial mechanism for ensuring fair and equitable treatment. Sorry if I read more into your post than was there.

Frank, interesting points but do you have both an employee's union and civil service in your workplace? If so, it seems a bit redundant (and costly) since one of the purposes of civil service is to provide an impartial mechanism for ensuring fair and equitable treatment.

The City, of course, has multiple unions (though I haven't been in one in two dozen years.) The unions negotiate and advocate for their members. That is not the role of civil service.

Civil servive provides a mechanism --for union and non-union employees alike-- to take action against arbitrary, capricious and unlawful treatment. It goes back to the days when nearly all government employees were patronage appointments, which led to rampant nepotism, cronyism, and corruption. The Civil Service board members serve at no cost as volunteers, protecting, one hopes --and I think it works--the public interest.

Now, Kari, please, a "...right-wing blogger..."? Has the Democratic party in this part of the world gone that far to the sinister? Please tell us this is progressive humor.

Asked and answered. I really wish people would read the comments all the way through - and not get partway, zip to the bottom and post something that's already been discussed.

Anyway, yes: Gullyborg is a right-wing blogger. I think he would agree.

Sorry Kari, I did misread your post and the followup comments. I'll blame it on 13 hours in United's economy section. But heck, on the bright side, it led to the fascinating "Festival of Cordite". America is indeed a great place.

I am so so flattered that some folks here think I am Torrid Joe.

Nope!

But thanks for playing.

Love,
Daphne