The backroom political scene in Oregon has been compared to New Jersey more than once, so not too surprising. I also wouldn't be very surprised to see familiar faces turn up in seats of office back there either.

I am amazed at the popularity of soccer spectating in Portland, or anywhere in the U.S for that matter. Watching players go up and down the field for an hour before even a single goal is scored is worse than watching hockey or golf on T.V. for me. At least with hockey you get to routinely see a fight and some board checking. Got a better circus feel to it. Watching soccer is just plain boring.

So, for now, have to begrudingly respect major league soccer seems to be doing well in Portland. Doubt the city has made back the millions it has poured into what used to be called Civic Stadium.

To Paulson's credit, at least he will be able to blame his inevitable failure on the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression.

Saying it with a straight face might be a bit of a challenge. Certainly much harder if papa is within earshot.

I don't think you have to enjoy the game to have a good time down there. The whole carnival atmosphere is pretty fun. I'm not a soccer fan, nor a soccer hater, but I've been to two games and had a great time at each. This is (strangely) working out better than I imagined it to. I hope it keeps up.

The sad thing is that they didn't learn anything from the original Giants Stadium (next to the new Meadowlands stadium) built 1976.

They had the thing set up to pay for itself and it probably could have. However, once the political piggies saw a cash flow, it probably looked like the Colorado river did to Los Angeles 50 years ago - Look at it now.

We really need to teach the politicians some other trick for eco dev besides building things - We just keep gettign screwed.

It wouldn't take a genius to predict what happened in Harrison, I rode the train through there last year on my way to Trenton, NJ (I know, I know) and it's a total urban hellscape. There are abandoned factories and warehouses as far as the eye can see, plus the shiny new stadium. Even in a housing boom the idea that the area would develop into something was likely a fantasy, now it's an impossibility.

The Timbers and Civic Stadium are a completely different deal, the bars and restaurants are already there. The tax base is more than forty times larger than Harrison's, and required less borrowing.

"The Timbers and Civic Stadium are a completely different deal, the bars and restaurants are already there."

You sure you aren't paraphrasing Glickman Jr and Gardiner when they tried making PGE Park "pay for itself"?

When there are no games there that neighborhood is exactly the same the other 350 or so nights as it was before.

The Timbers deal is not as stupid as the Harrison deal. That's because Portland had already made all the colossally stupid deals it could get away with for the time being. As a result, it could make only a bad deal, not a spectacularly bad deal, with Little Lord Paulson.

The real problem for Portland is that no other city is going to be stupid enough to enter into a Harrison-like fiasco with another "major league" soccer team. And without that level of subsidies, there will be no more teams. Without more teams, the league will fold. Without a league, the Portland Timbers won't be successful.

As we've said here from the beginning, Portland will always be a great soccer town. But that doesn't mean it will work out financially, at all.

Having grown up walking distance from Harrison, I can say that the stadium district has got decent residential neighborhoods close by. But one is separated from the stadium by railroad tracks, and the other by the utterly toxic Passaic River. It's not a place for condos, and it's not a place you want to be after dark -- especially after they've laid off a big wedge of police.

Steve: I wasn't arguing that the stadium brought the restaurants, I was arguing the opposite: that the city wasn't depending on the stadium for development because the area was already developed. The Harrison somehow expected condos and restaurants and shops to pop up all at once because they'd built a stadium in the middle of a toxic hellhole. Bojack's right about the geography, except that I'd say the big mess extends beyond the railroad tracks to I-280, but regardless, geography and rotten industry has conspired against that part of town to make it uninhabitable.

Jack Bog: I know I said I'd talk to you about this in 3 years, but since you're prognosticating further I feel the need to point out the following:

MLS league average and median attendance numbers are both at record levels this year, and the league has signed consecutive TV contracts that have significantly increased their TV revenue (this year with Fox Soccer, next year with NBC). These aren't the sort of numbers that scream "short term problems" to me.

The TV money is better, but it's not enough and it won't last. Without new teams, the league will fold. After the Harrison debacle, it's not looking good.

"MLS league average and median attendance numbers are both at record levels this year"

Any of these teams ever going to make a profit?

Or is it all going to be driven by franchise fees? I don't think you're going to sell Grants Pass a MLS team.

"The tax base is more than forty times larger than Harrison's, and required less borrowing."

Give me odds on Paulson or TIFs paying back the $11M on top of ever getting back the $35M we threw into PGE Park.

Steve, as reported by the Tribune, the cost of the second renovation with cost overruns was $39 Million. Then there is still the city debt remaining of approximately $28 Million on the first renovation after the bankruptcy of the first "city partnership".

Just the debt service on the combined $67 Million at 7% bonding (if you'd even have any buyers-PDC can's sell bonds for that right now) would be $4.69 Million per year. That isn't even paying down the principal. Is Jeld wen making $6 million in profits a year? No.

Soccer, or as most of us know it ... kickball. As exciting as watching grass grow, without the intrigue. As exciting as watching paint dry, but without the color change. As exciting as watching a turtle cross the road, but without breathtaking finish.

Soccer, er, kickball - zzzzz, zzzzz, zzzz