Think about this. The man who flys you and your family on your next vacation, with thousands of hours of training and school expense most likely makes less than half what your tri-met bus driver makes. Thank you Govt. employee unions, something is backward here

Really? Airline pilots making $50K? Maybe on Horizon.

50K pilots? quite a few more than you think!

Horizon pilots start out at $18K and move up to the mid $30s before they try and get on with a major airline.

I always thought that pilots were glorified bus drivers...

Maybe I was wrong. Bus Drivers are just glorified pilots.

Jack, if you think that's an attack you should reread the post. What I'm arguing is that incentives matter. Just as paying John less would damage CPI, paying drivers less will damage TriMet.

It's a world of tradeoffs. We can disagree on where the fulcrum is, but I can't imagine you disagree with the premise.

Whatever rhetoric point you were making, you lost the argument because you behaved like a jerk.

Public employees' salaries, and pensions, and everything else they get from the taxpayers, are a public record. If the bus drivers don't like it, they can quit.

There are 200 people at Tri-Met making six figures? They've built a gravy train!

I won't argue the "jerk" point, but one thing I'm definitely not doing is criticizing OCN/CPI's decision to unearth this salary data. I think they're doing really impressive journalism and I think the Govdocs site is beautifully executed and a terrific public service.

I do want that to be clear.

Bitching about Charles's salary, and running it next to a photo of him, was a cheap, cheap shot. If you want people to take your publication seriously, don't be a punk.

I posted this at Michael's blog:
John’s pay is not an issue because it is paid by people voluntarily giving money to his institute.

Greyhound drivers’ pay is not an issue because it is paid by people who find their service worth the money.

Trimet drivers’ pay is an issue because they are mostly paid by money taken from unwilling people by the force of government (and ultimately backed up by people with guns who will come to get you if you refuse to pay.)

Thanks
JK

While many pilots are underpaid, the guys who fly 747s on long routes at the majors don't work 60 jours per MONTH and take home six figure salaraies.

That said, no bus driver should be earning more $40,000. Any amount over that should be subject to a confiscatory tax. In fact, we ought to let the shrillest voice determine the maximum salary that any career should pay. That's how socialism works. Same with CEO's: tax every dollar over x amount at 90%. Use those taxes to feed steak to the poor. Or tofu. Their choice.

FYI -

The average pilot, copilot, and flight engineer in America (May 2009 data from the Dept. of Labor) made $117.060 a year. The 10th percentile made $56,620 a year (i.e., 90% of the people in the occupation made more than that).

Salem bus drivers top out around $40K annually

So, where do I sign up to drive one of them Max thingies?

Michael PortlandAfoot, if you are "arguing that incentives matter" in regards to TriMet pay, then why did you research and list Charles's pay? Your "argument" using Charles has no relevance.

Then, after you did, why didn't you do a comparison of Charles total compensation (3% benefits) with TriMet's 135% benefits beyond their pay scale?

Why didn't you make comparisons to all those that advocate for TriMet, Lightrail, Trolleys, like TriMet's own lobbyist conglomerate, or PDC lobbyists, Mayor Adams lobbyists, or Charlie Hales with HDR Engineering, or Rick Gustafson with Portland StreetCar, or Stacy/Witbeck's lobbyists?

Lee, I called out John's pay because the debate about TriMet worker pay is happening in a vacuum. How are we deciding whose work is worth what? The obvious answer to "why is John making $100 grand?" is that if he weren't, he might leave CPI.

This is also the obvious answer to why experienced, workaholic bus drivers are making $100 grand.

And Jack, I see your argument that calling John out was unfair. I disagree, but I may be wrong and I don't mind your calling me out in turn.

PortlandAfoot Michael really blew this.
He says "But John and CPI are constantly questioning the idea that bus drivers' skills and experience are valuable and worth paying for"

No they have not been questioning that at all.

What they have been doing to questioning the fiscal madness of agreeing to labor contracts that cannot be funded. They have questioned the merit in benefits that soar to 152% of wages while stacking up a $1 billion unfunded liability.
How does that due diligence translate into questioning whether driver skills deserve compensation?

It doesn't Michael.

Others compare what Charles and CPI does to any random TriMet activist.

But at TriMet, Metro, the PDC and other government entities is an army of over paid, lavish benefits, tax funded employee/acitvists producing reams of hype and perpetual campaign fodder to push forward the agenda. All while demonstrating gross negligence in all but eliminating the due diligence Cascade Policy Institute then provides.
Yet this is comparing John to a bus driver? And the intent is to say a reduction in the benefits at TriMet will reduce performance therefore no reduction is wise?
Give me a break. There is no money to pay the excessive benefits. As for John's total compensation it appears he gets less than the typical bus driver.
But again, John's compensation is meaningless in the analysis of Trimet's labor dispute and unfunded liability.
Take a look at the army of lobbyists and PR people at TriMet, Metro and the PDC et al who work full time to undermine the due diligence Charles and others perform.
TriMet advocates are always trying to do the same thing.
Every time some real math and real information is prepared and submitted by Charles many of the usual TriMet activists pile on to discredit it by attacking the messenger.
When TriMet doesn't like what Charles brings they do the same thing.
Even when Charles recently quoted TriMet's own audit, because it was Charles citing it, Neil McFarlane referred to it as "Apples and Oranges put together to come up with an unreasonable number." That wasn't Neil's take when auditors presented it at the Board Meeting.
Even the attempted premise of PortlandAfoot is off.
Speculating about what ones performance would be following a pay cut is essentially meaningless without defining what the reduction is.
With TriMet it's primarily the benefits that will have to change. But any reduction will leave the benefits package still very high.
It seems Michael is attempting to argue no reduction for anyone is merited because it will lower performance?

This was a mistake by the otherwise credible Michael. A misguided misdirecting of a severe problem that I would have expected from some of the hard core TriMet activists.
Tomorrow TriMet, the PDC and Clackamas County Chair Lynn Peterson will be reaching new levels in government advocacy of fiscal madness in urging the TriMet board to formally approve the later stage of Milwaukie Light Rail planning.
And what does Michael and the so called transit advocates do? They come out swinging at Charles and CPI, the only entity providing the public with due diligence.
Amazing.

"....bus driver Alan Raaberg, who had apparently been averaging more than 60 hours of work per week..."

Aside from the benefits & salary issue, does anyone really want to get on a bus whose driver is working a 60-hour week? There's a reason airline pilots can only work a certain number of hours a month : it's called public safety. Alan Raaberg may be a great guy, but seriously, how alert and aware can he (or anyone else) be on the road after working more than 40 hours a week? I rarely ride the bus, but when I do, I certainly don't want to be driven by a tired driver who may not be alert.

Michael, I'll ask the simple question again in shorter fashion. If you want to discuss Performance = Pay, then why did you pick anyone for comparison, particularily Charles? Why didn't you pick Rick Gustafson?

Lee,

Or Olivia Clark, TriMet's executive director of government affairs – its staff lobbyist – Her annual salary was set for $152,466 in fiscal year 2011.

Plus benefits.

And perfomrs zero due diligence while lobbying for expansion of TriMet.

Michael: What I'm arguing is that incentives matter. Just as paying John less would damage CPI, paying drivers less will damage TriMet.
JK:
Does that mean they will start shooting videos while they drive?
Does that mean the will start reading books while driving.
Does that mean they will quit looking carefully when they make a left turn?

OOPS - they already do all those things with a $150k fully loaded pay.

Maybe we should cut their pay to that of airline pilots. Or, maybe they need to get paid the same as Greyhound drivers.

Thanks
JK

Here is a little history (bold added):
Most transit systems in America were private and profitable, if declining, as late as the 1960s. Since being taken over by the government, transit productivity has greatly declined. The number of passenger trips carried per transit employee has fallen by around 50 percent and the inflation-adjusted cost of carrying one rider or one passenger mile has grown by about 150 percent.

see the whole article and download the full report:
http://ti.org/antiplanner/?p=4030#more-4030

thanks
jk

"Most transit systems in America were private and profitable, if declining, as late as the 1960s. Since being taken over by the government, transit productivity has greatly declined. The number of passenger trips carried per transit employee has fallen by around 50 percent and the inflation-adjusted cost of carrying one rider or one passenger mile has grown by about 150 percent."

So if I close all of the least traveled routes and just run buses on those that are super busy and thus highly profitable I can lay off most of the transit employees.

That would allow me to double the number of passenger trips per transit employee and maybe even triple the inflation-adjusted cost of carrying one rider or one passenger mile. Not to mention getting rid of the tax subsidy of Tri-Met. Or am I misunderstanding the implication of your statistics.

Anon Too:

You must not use Tri-Met: closing the least traveled routes IS Tri-Met's strategy. Add in the "free" Homeless Square to boost ridership numbers, and big federal subsidies for rail, and you could be a Tri-Met Executive V.P.

Make the bus stops farther apart, provide inadequate security, and replace functional bus shelters with art noveau glass statements and you could be CEO.

Their is something wrong with this story, as a truck driver the maximum you can work in a week is 60 hours and their is alot of paperwork involved to do that, those are federal DOT regs.

"Really? Airline pilots making $50K? Maybe on Horizon."

In Medford that is often all we have. Earlier this year I was returning home and asked the flight attendant a question about the route we had taken. She referred me to the pilots. When I saw these two "kids," I was so shocked I asked them if their mothers knew they were out flying airplanes.

They were not amused and later when I learned a little more about it neither was I.

Maybe a different discussion for a different day (or not).