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Wednesday, August 25, 2010

Is the Fourth Amendment only for the rich?

Better put up a barbed wire fence, I guess.

Comments (44)

Hey, as long as you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to hide or fear.

"Hey, as long as you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to hide or fear."

And as long as you don't piss of a politician. You do remember Nixon's enemys list don't you?

Not to mention false accusations like the bad fingerprint "match" that put that Portland lawyer in jail for the train bombing.


Allan L. - You have this bass ackwards. The long standing law is that there must be a reasonable suspicion and a warrant before the govt can violate your privacy. I can only guess what kind of right winger you must be. You probably thought the Watergate break-in was legal too. People like you scare me and it depresses me about how poorly citizens are being taught about the constitution and the Bill of Rights. You'd do well in a totalitarian state as a yes-nik though.

I can see the Oregon DOT salivating, as this decision clears a path for them to install black boxes to track drivers for purposes of "taxation."

How is the physical installation of something on this guy's car, regardless of whether it is in the driveway, garage, or on a public street, not a violation of his basic expectation of privacy? We aren't talking about a flyer for a pizza parlor, we are talking about an electronic device that had to be HIDDEN.

I don't know about you, but I expect privacy all sorts of places, especially when those who trespass intend to act with deception in doing so.

Many people have fought and given their lives for our rights and freedom. . did they die in vain?

The constitution has been trampled on enough already, this is just more crossing the line again on our rights.

This is not about having nothing to hide or fear and quite frankly, if this continues whether one is 100% perfect citizen or not, the fearful aspect comes when too many rights will have been taken and then will be too late and even for those like you who think you will not have anything to fear.

So this is the device on the car now to track people. Is your home next to be monitored?

Do you think it would be acceptable for the authorities to without a warrant come into your home to search whatever because you have nothing to fear?

The fact that a judge in America would admit that we're turning into a totalitarian state right out of the novel "1984" is a little shocking to me. That's how far gone this situation is.
The article doesn't elaborate on how the rich are excluded from this latest invasion of privacy but I can guess.
What's the point of taking trillions if you have to follow the peasants' rules?

The key in implementing the takeover of America was the massive doses of fear such as with 9/11, combined with the steady incremental erosion of our freedoms.

All the while the treasury was looted by Wall Street firms and foreign bankers so we are now massively in debt - indentured servants in our own country.

Meanwhile the anger is misdirected - it's not at the perpetrators of the coup - but at one party or another in a dumbing down that elevates the cast of Jersey Shore to our new cognoscenti.

How the elite must chuckle watching Sarah Palin take on the liberals. Mama Grizzlies? That's so cute. It's such an effective diversion, even though these diversions won't be necessary much longer.

This ruling is a sign of how far along the process has gone. Another recent example was the way BP had US citizens arrested if they dared to take pictures of our Gulf coast. That was a pretty blatant example of our lost sovereignty.

Yes, diversions won't be needed much longer.
They may provide some control but control won't be a big problem soon. The freedom that was being nibbled away is going in chunks now.

Even in the worst moments of fearing all this was really happening, I held out hope that it was just a bad dream.
But we're about to enter a phase where the plan is in full effect and it doesn't really matter anymore if we know it or not.

It's very important that a rabbit doesn't know when the giant snake is sneaking up on it. But once the snake is wrapped around it and the rabbit's head is entering the snake's mouth, it doesn't really matter that the rabbit catches on.

Remember how 1984 used language? I thought of that as I read that Merritt Paulson is about to sell the naming rights to PGE Park. Somehow, it's our stadium but he owns the rights to the name.

May I suggest, "War Is Peace" Stadium?

And as for the judge who openly called out this totalitarian rule, don't go up on any high rises or ride in any small planes for awhile. The new rulers of America don't appreciate this kind of insolence.

Bill McDonald: . .Remember how 1984 used language? I thought of that as I read that Merritt Paulson is about to sell the naming rights to PGE Park. Somehow, it's our stadium but he owns the rights to the name. .

I wondered the same thing, it is our stadium, we still owe plenty on it, and how much more are we going to be owing and yet Paulson is about to take care of the naming rights??
Or is he going to name it the SamRand Stadium?
As for the rest you wrote about, it truly is scary. . our Congress has not stood up to the oath that they took to uphold our Constitution. I too as you said had held out hopes that this was just a bad dream. Now it is more and more turning into a nightmare.

Jim Karlock, LucsAdvo and clinamen — read my comments here much? Ever run into irony before?

Allan may be a bike Nazi, but he's not a real Nazi.


Dear Allen L,
I got it!
But I get why folks are upset by this.
We could, and maybe are loosing way more than our sense of humor.

Allan L.,
I know you have been on the threads, and was wondering about your comment.
I carried on as much as I did actually about the whole idea of this.
Take care.

Wrought Irony. A good tool to impale the population.

"The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit, which covers this vast jurisdiction, recently decided the government can monitor you in this way virtually anytime it wants — with no need for a search warrant."

The left wing 9th and most over turned of them all.

Maybe one doesn't have to be rich. Can't we put up a barrier to the driveway with no trespassing signs? What's the difference between that and a gate?

James Madison quote - If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.

Can't we put up a barrier to the driveway with no trespassing signs?

In Portland, probably not.

It's easy to get caught up in the superficial stuff. That's what it's there for. But I'm starting to feel a profound sense of history these days.
Think of the characters that went into this story - from the start of America. And not just the legends at the beginning but the Greatest Generation and the millions of everyday Americans who carried it forward.
We're connected to that story because - even though it's blogs and emails (all monitored by the new surveillance state) - we are the ones who are chronicling the end of America as those early generations knew it.
That's pretty heavy.

I can't imagine a second American Revolution, so we are going to be remembered as the living witnesses to these final events. I'm starting to pick up a profound vibe here. Historians for generations are going to wonder about our mindset as this great tragedy unfolded: "What was it like to watch the greatest country in the history of the world, implode and fail?"
And yes, they'll also wonder, "Why didn't they DO SOMETHING? They had decades to figure out what was going on. Why no response?"
It's impossible to be too dramatic about this. There's always a chance of a miraculous turnaround, but this - right now - is a national deathwatch.

Right, Bill. While the Supremes should reverse that 9th Cir. opinion, this country is certainly decompensating at an increasing rate, while the *ghoul-elites* fatten themselves on the carnage.

I wonder: WWTS?
What Would Tecumseh Say?

And say, consider this, now on deck:

*Net Neutrality -- The Last Stand!*

Franken goes ballistic on Verizon, Google, Comcast, and NBCU

Next, we'll all really have bugs up our azzes....

Anyone who can't imagine a second American Revolution really hasn't been paying attention the past 18 months. A couple more of these activist court decisions, and out come the pitchforks and torches. Unfortunately, most of the people who complain on here about the erosion of rights will end up opposing the revolution because this one won't be led by "the rich."

I guess my question is this: if the 9th Circus Court says that parking in a driveway = no expectation of privacy, then do you have an expectation of privacy if you park in a garage? Is a simple door the difference between "public" and "private"? Would they argue that because the door isn't locked, that there is no expectation of privacy because any random person could twist the doorknob to gain entry?

Is it time for everyone to start cleaning out the boxes and unused exercise equipment so their cars will fit, and then installing multiple locks so that their 4th amendment rights will be held up in a court of law?

This is a ridiculous decision, and also is completely opposite of a decision made by the federal appellate court in DC. Hopefully it goes to the Supreme Court, and hopefully they make the right decision.

Jack - Why couldn't I install a fence and gate to keep people out of my driveway in Portland? I mean I used to visit a friend who lived in an apartment building where the back entrance, where the trash unit and other things were, had a locked gate on it (trashco must have had a key) and where the fence was topped in razor wire. Now I had a trespassing neighbor who I re-fenced (he'd destroyed an older wire fence) out of my yard but knowing that he loved to ladders in his trespass I topped it with barbed wire. It stayed until his realtor (yes he finally left) complained to the city and I had to remove it). Of course the city in the form of the popo didn't do much to secure my property rights.

And for those of you with any memory. The courts ruled that cops can go through your curb trash. When it was done by citizens to a local pol who loved the ruling, the pol howled about invasion of privacy.... wah, wah, wah...

One thing I've always loved about Oregon is that despite Nixon's omnibus safe sreets act, anyone who enters your house unannounced is considered a threat and can be shot if they are inside. Do we lose the rights to shoot burglars next because the popo wants to break and enter without warrants and notice?

It's difficult to hide GPS tracking devises on bicycles. But, that's when silent black helicopters become so useful.

John Fairplay,
I've been paying attention for around 9 years.
The Bush administration was my personal wake-up call. That's when we returned to authoritarian rule with the dictates of the executive branch becoming the law of the land. When it finally ended, I was hoping for some prosecutions but all we got were Medals of Freedom and book tours. That's when I sensed something was lost here that might not come back.

A second American Revolution is a technical problem. You can't just grab your musket, meet on the village green, and expect to defeat drones, and all the other hideous weapons that are out there.

But you also have to be wise in how you talk about the government. I'm certainly not recommending anything like an overthrow. That would be against the law.

I predict as this unfolds we'll reach a time where everyone will mentally go underground. It's already approaching - dissent is in the process of being criminalized. I go back to the Gulf Coast where citizens weren't allowed to take pictures without fear of arrest because a multi-national corporation was stifling their right to show what was really going on there.

We're all going to have to be more careful. If you think you can say anything you want or write anything you want in this country anymore, then it's you that haven't been paying attention.

This is exactly what you get when the ruling elite start treating the Constitution as a living document that changes with time or no longer valid in todays world. The Constitution was written to restrict what govt can do to you so the people are free from oppression. That has been twisted into what the govt can do for and to you for controll. Exactly what our founding fathers were trying to prevent.

Might I suggest we insist our politicians read and follow the constitution. If they don't get rid of them.

For a view of the future, read Margaret Attwood's books.

Allan L

Now you're expecting me to remember the content of all your posts. Heck, I can't even remember what I wrote here most of the time. :-)

Home nothing... Any car parked in any place accessible to the public is fair game... This is a profoundly bad decision...

MachineShedFred: . .This is a ridiculous decision, and also is completely opposite of a decision made by the federal appellate court in DC. Hopefully it goes to the Supreme Court, and hopefully they make the right decision.


Q: I can't believe the justices acted in such a blatantly political way.
A: Read the opinions for yourself: http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/supremecourt/00-949_dec12.fdf (December 9 stay stopping the recount), and http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/00pdf/00-949.pdf (December 12 final opinion)

Q: So what are the consequences of this?
A: The guy who got the most votes in the US and in Florida and under our Constitution (Al Gore) will lose to America's
second choice who won the all important 5-4 Supreme Court vote.

Q: I thought in a democracy, the guy with the most votes wins.
A: True, in a democracy. But America is not a democracy. In America, in the year 2000, the guy with the most US Supreme
Court votes wins.

Q: Is there any way to stop the Supreme Court from doing this again?
A: YES. No federal judge can be confirmed without a vote in the Senate. It takes 60 votes to break a filibuster. If only 41 of the 50 Democratic Senators stand up to Bush and his Supremes and say that they will not approve a single judge appointed by him until a President can be democratically elected in 2004, the judicial reign of terror can end... and one day we can hope to return to the rule of law.

Clinamen, did you read the story? You are railing against a conservative supreme court decision in Bush vs. Gore. This decision was from the 9th circuit, the most liberal court out there. Otherwise, both parties are at fault for circumventing the constitution. No one party has a strangle hold on bad.

Darrin: . .Might I suggest we insist our politicians read and follow the constitution. If they don't get rid of them.

That would be most of them.

. . No one party has a strangle hold on bad.

I agree. D and/or R. Both parties have betrayed we the people and our constitution.
If only the 41 out of 50 D's had stood up, but no they did not either.

I railed because of an earlier comment that hopefully the Supreme Court will make the right decision.

I railed about the 2000 matter because I believe now that at that point is when we should have insisted on due process, and somehow let it go. . and most likely did not realize how the scene would progress and escalate. A liberal court decision on this shows how damaged our America has become.

Meh, not surprising. Yay war on drugs. They've been working towards this for years. There are all kinds of distinctions between what is private property and what isn't. I think one term they use is "common area" that is protected but anything beyond that part of your yard isn't private. Hell, IIRC they can take photos of inside your house while in they're in the air say via chopper if your windows are open. Don't tell the paparazzi.

Yet another reason why this conservative type no longer trusts cops/feds at all and I'm about at the point that I outright hate them.

While I'm totally on board with the expressions here of alarm and dismay about government intrusion, I can't help wondering how much real erosion of privacy is involved in this ruling. After all, there are other direct means of surveillance (stakeouts, satellites, to name a couple) that could be used to track a car. Is the use of a GPS device (which, by the way, our state government wants us all to have in our cars anyway so they can tax our use of it in a new way) qualitatively different, or just cheaper and easier? If the latter, is the decision really significant? I'm not arguing that it's not, but I'm genuinely about this.

Interesting points, Allan. If the police can sit in an unmarked car a block from your house and then follow you wherever you go without a search warrant, why can't they follow you electronically without a search warrant? This is similar to the debates about photo radar and red light cameras -- no one objects to police ticketing speeders and red light runners. But we do object to them doing so with machines and computers.

Is there a legal distinction? Should there be?


Can you say precedent? Not about gps at all. It's sneaking into your space bit by bit.

Cats understand that only too well. That's why certain burglars are called cat burglars.

Bit by bit here and there, then leaps and leap frogging over our Constitution, like it is old hat and then what are we in for?

It's not the driveway, stupid(s). Don't be distracted. The 4th Amendment violation occurred in the unconsented government intrusion into the citizen's personal property, his car, with the government's indiscriminate tracking gadget, and then using that against him, including in court. Maybe a 5th Amendment violation here also. What's Kozinski's dissent to the declination of reconsideration en banc say? I haven't had the spare time yet to read that. Again, the Supremes should crush this convincingly -- drugs or no drugs at issue.

There is always Ernest Callenbach's vision of a better world for us in the PNW. And the how to get there is laid out in Ecotopia Emerging...

http colon //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecotopia_Emerging

And to think, there isnt a Republican administration to blame it on.
I guess hope and change was too much to ask for.

See what else may be coming. Who owns interest in these body scan machines? Is this being pushed for money to be made based on fear issues or actually to be used against us?

. . . .The Electronic Privacy Information Center has filed a lawsuit against the DHS asking for the program to be suspended "pending an independent review."
While AS&E has not disclosed which US agencies have bought the van-mounted machines for domestic use, the ACLU's Jay Stanley warns law enforcement agencies not to get carried away with their new technology.
"Unless they have probable cause to search a specific vehicle, government agencies had better not be roaming US streets conducting backscatter X-ray scans of vehicles and their occupants (much less pedestrians, cyclists, etc.) without their knowledge or consent," he writes. "The Constitution may have taken a battering in recent years, but on this point it remains clear."

So this is the device on the car now to track people. Is your home next to be monitored?

It has already started. Has PGE installed a "smart meter" on your house yet? Wait until you replace all your appliances with "smart" ones.


Explain, please. (waiting with baited breath!)

Gee since the justices involved think this is OK maybe it's time to GPS their vehicles that are parked in the open and track them to see what kinds of unsavory habits that they have. I mean if there is no expectation of privacy from the govt, I guess the govt's stooges should have no expectation of privacy from the govt. Just sayin'

I mean to say "I guess the govt's stooges should have no expectation of privacy from the public."

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