With all the Planners we have I am sure that the light rail, trolley and electric car overloads on the electric grid is all considered.

It is like the electric Volt that all the taxpayers will be subsidizing by over $8,000 dollars to get the price down to a competitive level. Then there is the additional $2500 dollars to install new electrical plug-in systems for each home for each car that will be subsidized again by taxpayers for the select few. On top of that over 25% of homes that may acquire electric cars in the near future will have to upgrade their whole home electric panels to 220 amp service costing from $5,000 to $10,000 dollars. I'm sure there will be tax subsidies for this to.

And there will be a few bloggers here saying how we subsidize cars, but forget how extensive all this "sustainable" stuff is subsidized, and even at a higher rate, without any proof that they are really "sustainable".

Why is it that all the rest of us are sustaining with our tax dollars only the few?

And there will be a few bloggers here saying how we subsidize cars, but forget how extensive all this "sustainable" stuff is subsidized, and even at a higher rate, without any proof that they are really "sustainable".

None of it is sustainable if any of it is comprised of imported materials.

Civilization is not sustainable.

"the taxpayers will be subsidizing by over $8,000 dollars to get the price down to a competitive level."

GM still wants $40K for this thing. Kinda pricey considering a Prius or the all-electric Leaf is about half. Your tax dollars at work feeding GM mgmt that's about 1/2 IQ point above your average CoP City COuncil member.

On the brownout issue, that's what the smart meters are all about, they'll just start shutting stuff off without asking.

On electric cars, though, as long as they charge some other time besides 600-900AM and 400-700PM, probably they won't make the load any worse.

In the long term, the two big issues will be no new HV transmission lines (the biggest bottleneck) and no new power generation sources (spare me the solar panels and windmills charging an electric car - they can't do it.)

Yep, our current power generation system can't handle all those proposed electric cars. Toss in no more nukes, tearing out coal plants, blowing up dams and raising unreliable wind turbines just adds to the problem.

Then there is the additional $2500 dollars to install new electrical plug-in systems for each home for each car that will be subsidized again by taxpayers for the select few.

Actually, according to Wikipedia, the Chevy Volt's battery can be charged with a 120v outlet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt

I read that as not so much pointing a finger at the electric car as the problem, but that the electric distribution system is the problem.

I recently read that "peak oil" isn't a crazy idea anymore. Oil production peaked in 2005, production has been falling ever since, and fighting it with more drilling just means we run out sooner.

I'm not a fan of nuclear power, but it sounds like we need to build a lot more nuclear power plants over the next twenty years or reduce the population of the planet by a lot. On the other hand, I believe I heard the same thing in 1973.

Well...I consider Hanford and come to the realization that building more nuclear generation plants is NOT an idyllic approach.

"I consider Hanford and come to the realization that building more nuclear generation plants is NOT an idyllic approach."

Umm, you do realize a few things have changed since Hanford? The French seem to be doing fine and the Chinese are also big proponents.

I recently read that "peak oil" isn't a crazy idea anymore.

when ever was it a crazy idea?

I say "crazy idea" in the way that, no matter what you think, there are plenty of people out there who will tell you that you are crazy. There are plenty of people who think that there is an unlimited supply of oil, possibly from some abiotic source that we simply need to drill deep enough to tap into.

While building more nuclear power plants may not be an idyllic approach, as the planet runs out of fossil fuel, the alternatives, like significantly reducing the population of the planet, will probably not be idyllic either.

You may think nuclear plants to be undesirable, but operated and licensed correctly, a nuclear power generator can mitigate the storage problem. Far from being fodder for garbage disposal, plutonium can and is being used, in Japan, France and Russia as the fuel of choice for certain reactors.

This technology is over 30 years old.

Jon, the $2500 per house is an average upgrade cost for charging an electric car as even the electric car industry is projecting.

Anytime we add new circuits, additional loads for more appliances in existing homes, many times we have to upgrade the service panel, upgrade internal wiring in some cases, yank out aluminum wiring in 70's homes and add new circuits if the panel allows. The $2500 even seems low if you want to be properly wired to code.

If the job is being subsidized by taxpayers for an electric car plug in, I guarantee that it will be inspected by proper jurisdictions, performed by union electricians or equivalent wages, and have it inspected by some government officials representing the subsidy program-probably twice for the before and after. Cost will be more than $2500.

This doesn't mean electric cars are bad, but the facts are being put out there that for the 96% of the population not going to electric cars before 2025, the rest of us will be paying substantial amounts for the select few. Studies show that these select few will mostly be coming from the wealthy.

Hmm. Odd. I recall seeing just the other day a study which said one plug-in hybrid pulls current equivalent to five plasma TVs. Anyone raising alarms about plasma TVs causing brownouts? No?

Not a crisis. (Good way for the linked publication to pick up some pageviews though.)

Ah, here we go. 1 kilowatt (each) for typical toasters, microwaves. 1.5kW for irons, space heaters. 2kW for a car. 4kW for a clothes dryer.

See: http://slashdot.org/story/10/07/12/2316238/Electric-Cars-Wont-Strain-the-Power-Grid

and: http://www.absak.com/library/power-consumption-table

They'll make a dent, but it's not anything to get all worried about.

Peak oil? Maybe we will hit it before the gulf fills up?

I take a broader view. The problem is not so much the grid or the electric cars, bu the vast amount of untapped EMV potential sitting in batteries durng the workday when the vehicles are idled at offices, malls, etc.

In Denmark, provisions have been made to tap this potential, allowing it to upload into the grid during vehicle inactive periods. then, uring the drive home, or to the next job as so many of us do these days in the US, the hybrid becomes recharged.

Denmark obtains a very significant input into its' grid from this automotive source, why can't we? Gee, we sent Yanks to the moon, has this become another screwing in a light-bulb jest?

"In Denmark, provisions have been made to tap this potential, allowing it to upload into the grid during vehicle inactive periods."

Huh? You charge the car and then drive it to work to charge the grid? How do you get home without gas? I am missing the point.

"2kW for a car."

Problem is you don't run a 5 Plasma TVs for 8 hours straight (the time to charge a car.) Albeit, it is during low demand time (at least for now.)

In Denmark, provisions have been made to tap this potential, allowing it to upload into the grid during vehicle inactive periods. then, during the drive home, or to the next job as so many of us do these days in the US, the hybrid becomes recharged.

But what if I want to drive home on battery power? Doesnt that kind of defeat the purpose of having the hybrid car?
I bought my hybrid so I can pay less for gas, not so I can recharge the grid.

Steve: A person would only need to charge for that long if the battery has drained that far. A Tesla roadster, for instance, uses about a kilowatt per five miles. Twenty mile round trip commute? Two hour charge at 2kW. Of course some users would need to charge longer, but twenty miles covers a surprisingly large percentage of US commutes.

"A Tesla roadster, for instance, uses about a kilowatt per five miles"

You need to measure it in kWh to figure battery life. Besides the 5 kW (approx 7 hp) is only at cruise and not if you step on it, which I assume you would be doing with a roadster.

The model is flawed because I am not seeing why these things would be used for a commute instead of just taking a bus which is way more efficient.

You are correct. I meant to say about one kilowatt-hour per five miles.

I'm using it as an example because it's the most well-known full-featured electric on the market today. I'm assuming "normal" driving, letting the roadster stand in for something more sedate.

Steve -

In regards to the commute - have you seen what Tri-met has done to routes and stops? There are many for whom a drive is a far more efficient use of time than a two-hour bus commute with transfers and wait times.