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This page contains a single entry from the blog posted on February 12, 2010 7:45 AM. The previous post in this blog was Portland Beavers talking to Tucson. The next post in this blog is Paulson stadium loan deal revealed. Many more can be found on the main index page or by looking through the archives.

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Friday, February 12, 2010

Your sewer bill dollars at work -- for bicyclists

The collective nervous breakdown known as Mayor Sam Adams has entered its 14th month here in Portland, and the patient is now foaming at the mouth. The latest news is that His Creepiness is going to skim $20 million off the Bureau of Environmental Services budget -- much, if not most, of which comes from city residents' sewer bills -- to pay for bicycle lanes and other two-wheeled goodies.

The outrage over this is going to be big, people. Portland's sewer bills are already nuts -- something like $50 a month per household on average -- and the BES is supposedly so hard up for cash that the city's planning to borrow nearly a half-billion dollars over the next few months for more sewer renovations. In this climate, how the city can divert $20 million out of the sewer bureau's budget to pander to the bicycle vote is beyond all comprehension.

It's pretty obvious that to get around the legal restrictions on increasing property taxes for junky pet projects, our elected officials are now jacking up and raiding every user fee in sight for the same crazy purposes. We're going to need a Measure 5 for sewer and water bills pretty soon.

At some point, civil disobedience may become ratepayers' only option. Maybe we need to hold back a few dollars each out of our next sewer bill to show our displeasure. Or something.

Comments (81)

Remember that color of mney crap they used to feed us about how only certain money can be spent certain ways? All the PWB bills must be used for PWB stuff?

Now you understand the solar panels and green house garbage PWB is doing. It's Randy's profit center and toy fund.

Spending a half billion dollars on changing how buildings use water would (a)obviate most or all of the need for the Big Pipe, and (b) thereby save about $2 billion dollars, and (c)creating a $1+ billion dollar budgeted surplus.

Seriously.

But this is what I mean about choosing boutique, pop efforts like a "bicycle plan" over the boring but meaningful and long-term projects like "transform how we manage stormwater and wastewater".

The latter won't get you re-elected. The former might.

"We're going to need a Measure 5 for sewer and water bills pretty soon."

I'll even take a petition around for signatures... bring it on...I would think Don Mcintire would be supportive of that..

I'm tired of being looked at as an unending source of cash by politicians.. let's see some major layoffs in city and state govt and expectations of higher performance from those that are left in place.

Shut up and pay your tithe to the bicyclists!

"We're going to need a Measure 5 for sewer and water bills pretty soon."

BTW - Good luck on that. PURB told PWB NOT to raise rates 18% and that they were blowing money and they repsonded with a large F-U.

this news has me just furious. one of my pet peeves is how we are allowing Forest Park to decay. The Ivy is running rampant and choking the life out of our precious forest. The trails are in horrible shape. seems to me we should be spending this money on keeping our beloved Forest Park healthy. this would truly be in the best interest of the environment.

Unfortunately, trees dont vote.

I have this wacky idea. It's so crazy that, no ..., it wouldn't even make sense to air it in public.

Oh, well, here it goes anyway. Why doesn't the PWB use the money paid by the water and sewer system users for, ha ha ha, this one'll get ya .. maintaining and upgrading THE WATER AND SEWER SYSTEMS.

Lately I've tried to find a personal happy place in all this:

I've been reminding myself that no matter how ridiculous/expensive this city gets, there will always be a greater fool in San Fransisco who will buy my house at a mark-up on the premise that this is a socialist wonderland that "does things the right way."

The Oregon Department of Environmental Quality has fined the city of Portland $449,800 for numerous raw sewage overflows into the Willamette River and several streams that flow into the Willamette.

A total of 67 discharges over a period of about four and a half years occurred from the city's sewage collection system at multiple locations throughout Portland.

The sewage spills in this green city are not limited to the problems soon to be rectified by the BIG PIPE.

Antiquated sewer pipes along stream beds in the west hills rupture regularily while replacement is deferred over and over again by the Creeps in City hall.

The enviro bike creeps who support this not so green, rather brown, approach should be admonished by concerned citizens.
Screw the political correctness of the bike regime. They're contributing to the dysfunction and spoiling of Portland.

Also, in San Francisco. :)

"... there will always be a greater fool in San Fransisco who will buy my house at a mark-up on the premise that this is a socialist wonderland that "does things the right way."

That's some mighty cold comfort, Snards.

"maintaining and upgrading THE WATER AND SEWER SYSTEMS."

Never happen, everyone knows a lot of pipes in the ground are pushing 100 years old and they have zero reserves set aside for this kind of maintenance - Because it gives them an excuse to raise rates again.

I wonder if they need more people to gather signatures for the recall?......

This is a timely post. Last night as I was driving home, I hit what my wife and I refer to as "Portland double trouble", a combination of a cyclist and a Prius hogging and clogging the road.

This time, it was a City of Portland Prius that waved to the cyclist, motioning him to "take the lane" in front while traffic was following very slowly behind and at times honking and flashing headlights.

God, I love this town. It was probably Amy Ruiz driving that Prius.

These "artistes" love their bikes and are so down on comfortable cars and SUVs. Invariably, if they have a non-productive cash cow job or a trust fund they own at least one Golden or Lab with a bandana collar. Of course, these pet horses consume more energy and pollute more than one Tahoe but it does not apply in their dreamworld. Why should they care about the sewers or the rates? I am so grateful for this blog and the comforting screeds available.

Snards,

I'm voting with my feet, but it's not as easy as it used to be.

My S.W. Portland home has been on the market for five months at a 15% discount to the Zillow Zestimate, which is $140k less than the tax assessor's "Market Value".

Lots of showings, but no offers. Leaving Portland is only a viable solution if you can sell your house or business.

Mister Tee? Where would you go and why?

OK folks, This is more than serious. This water bureau needs to be stopped today from doing any more damage to our city, our businesses and citizens.

The bureau is seriously in debt and is like having a “last fling” before we may be forced to sell or lease our system to international water corporations because none of us can pay their horrendous bills. Don’t think it can’t happen here. Bull Run water has been the treasure of our city and many before us have worked to give us this gift of good drinking water. We as a community must stand up for this system and stop this insanity. We will be over a billion dollars in debt and drinking cancer causing chemicals and radon will be backed up into homes

work places and schools by the time they are done with the agenda. This is not a liberal agenda, this is a corporate agenda over us and if our elected officials do not stop this they are betraying the public interest.

http://foodandwaterwatch.org/water/pubs/reports/money-down-the-drain

*

Privateers may be creeping around your town hall. Your town is sitting on a gold mine: your water supply. Corporate executives know this and may be trying to weasel control of YOUR water from your city or town.
*

Corporations may try to exploit your struggling city. Because of the economic crisis, cities and towns across the nation are going broke, and large corporations are offering large sums of cash in exchange for control of our valuable drinking water and wastewater systems.
*

You might not know it’s happening in your own community. Your mayor or city council may be cutting a deal behind your back. They could be trying to sell off control of your water without even telling you. We’ve seen it happen far too often.
*

Your water bill could skyrocket. If you let them privatize your water utility, you could end up paying as much as 80 percent more for water service.

Read the full report.

Now are we just going to sit here and email, we need to spread the word to our community before this happens and put pressure on Leonard and the water bureau. The bureau is not working for us. The PURB (Public Utility Review Board) should be watchdogs for our public interest, who appoints them and are they our watchdogs?

Why not just go? There are plenty of (well a couple anyway) 2nd or 3rd world low tax (on wealth at any rate) dictatorships around the world that would be happy to have you.

Failing that there's anywhere south of the mason dixon with the huge quality of life index scores that are lovely this time of year.

You can sit around with all the anti-science folks and complain about how blizzards are god's proof that climate change is hogwash.


Mister Tee, sorry to hear about your house. I was being a bit glib about the current market.

My wife and I talk about eventually moving to Oregon City, or perhaps West Linn if we can afford it. When we were younger, we couldn't understand why so many people would move to the suburbs. As we get older, we start to understand.

Leaving Portland is only a viable solution if you can sell your house or business.

I'm out of business...no more Portland cab driving for me ! I'm so happy ! Austin, Texas here I come...

Mr T, you would like Texas. It is so much more than these narrow minded Portland bigots think. And they let you earn a living there. Sell your house for a tremendous loss...I guarantee that within a couple years, you will have made up the difference if you are any good at making money. And you'll be in Texas...

I, for one, am looking forward to the diversity, of which Portlanders chatter about all day every day, but know absolutely nothing of. Less than half White, Austin is. Already have a room lined up in the Black part of town...maybe I'll get my old cab driving gig in the barrio back. Adónde vas, Amigos ?

Oh, how I can't wait to see this dying monument to corruption and Leftist foolishness in my rear view mirror. Especially when I read stories like this one.

Your economy isn't going to get any better, either, Portlanders. In fact, now that you passed those insane tax measures, it's going to get far, far worse.

And you know what ? You fools deserve every bit of misery and suffering that is coming your way like an unstoppable freight train. My guess is that unemployment...officially mind you...hits 15-16 percent within a year and a half.

Oliver,

You can continue to pay your penance to the CoP overlords if you like. But Vancouver (WA) is not 2nd or 3rd world, and it probably isn't growing simply because it is such a wonderful place to live. I'm sure they smile every time they see a headline like this one.

Mister T

I second Texas. My year in Houston was probably the most enjoyable year of my life. Don't underestimate the "southern hospitality" factor either. The day I moved into my house in Houston, I was invited by my neighbor to a bbq where I met many other neighbors. Here in Salem, it took my neighbor over a year just to look up and nod when he saw me outside.

clinamen,

Portland water bills are already skyrocketing, and sadly it has little to do with the cost of providing water service, as this post alludes to. Maybe it isn't the "international water corporations" people should really be afraid of. The devil you know may be far worse.

Lastly, if you wish to push your agenda in such detail, I suggest you start your own blog, rather than pirating the bandwidth of others.

MJ:

Really! And who are you? A troll I expect, from the City, maybe?

Here's the deal: when more people drive, we build wider roads and more car parking spaces (we have about 3-5 parking spaces for each car in America). That means more runoff and higher sewer bills.

When some of those people decide to bike instead, your sewer bills are proportionately lower. This is simply smart economics.

I pay sewer bills. I drive a quarter as much as the average sewer bill payer. Right now, I'm subsidizing other folks who drive four times as much. Giving a tiny slice back to the times I bike seems only fair.

When some of those people decide to bike instead, your sewer bills are proportionately lower. This is simply smart economics.

Wha? Your post assumes that as more people bike, roads get destroyed and we have less runoff. This, in fact, is not the case.

That means more runoff and higher sewer bills.

Wrong, for two reasons: Parking and roadway impervious surfaces don't directly translate to "higher sewer bills" for private residents, and there is no causal link established in the US between auto use and bicycling. For example, NYC bicycle commute rates are rapidly increasing--and so is driving.

And commercial traffic, a large part of roadway use, is unaffected by a rise in bicycle use.

When some of those people decide to bike instead, your sewer bills are proportionately lower. This is simply smart economics.

No Evan, that's wishful thinking. For example: if bicycle ridership has increased dramatically in Portland, why has my sewer bill increased 25% in the past three years?

I drive a quarter as much as the average sewer bill payer.

It's this kind of nonsensical "facts" that make a lot of us ridicule half-billion dollar projects like the one you're advocating for, Evan. You have no idea who the "average sewer bill payer" is, *and* you have no idea how much they drive.

In other words, you're making things up as you go.

"When some of those people decide to bike instead, your sewer bills are proportionately lower. This is simply smart economics."

No, it's more like some rationalization you came up with. It's neither "smart" nor "economics".

Could you cyclists stop going on and on about everything you subsidize? The martyr routine was old a long time ago. We all pay taxes for all kinds of crap.

How do you guys steer your bikes when you're busy patting yourselves on the back all the time?

MJ,

This is not my personal agenda, this is a community matter.

Jacks blog is the appropriate site for this and is well

read by the community.

His site frequently focuses on the finances of our city council and

their agenda. His column today is about our sewer and water bills.

Why would you not want the people in our community to know

about this unless you are Leonard or Shaff or one who stands to

benefit if Bull Run is taken over by international water

corporations?

Ecohuman, I'm using data from FHWA on average miles driven. The average Portlander drives about 10% less than that, according to city data.

And the "why has my sewer bill gone up if biking has also gone up?" reasoning is fallacious. This is about long term investments.

Commercial traffic - by which you mean freight? is not a "large" part of roadway use. Now you're making stuff up.

The sewage system is built to handle our runoff. Clearly it will be scaled differently if the total runoff is lower.

"How do you guys steer your bikes when you're busy patting yourselves on the back all the time?"

They don't. They believe they are invincible and steer their bikes "Hey Mom! "Look! No hands!"...and steer directly into the path of an oncoming car.

Don't laugh or sneer. It happened more than once on a major SE street. I slammed on the brakes and hit the horn. He gave me the finger.

The sewage system is built to handle our runoff. Clearly it will be scaled differently if the total runoff is lower.

This is true. However, you haven't explained how more people biking translates to less runoff. I mean, the roads are still there. It's not like a paved mile of roadway gets TNT'd for each person that commutes by bike.

"It's not like a paved mile of roadway gets TNT'd for each person that commutes by bike."

In fact, roads with bike lanes have to be wider don't they?

Nothing costs less because you bike, except bikes, which become a commodity. The cost of road maintenance is driven by weather/ing and heavy vehicle traffic, not passenger car short trips. Same with pollution. The bike thing has become a religious cult thought system, like intelligent design. Want to really fix the pollution? Support DEQ in requiring heavy vehicles to modernize their dirty, old diesel engines, and get congress to do the same nationally. You can't find the bike impact with a microscope, but it is the fashionable cult, so that gets the attention. Greening heavy equipment -- that's where the payoff is. But, it isn't fashionable, so forget it!

There are already laws in place designed to prevent raiding of water/sewer $$. When the DA and AG can't be bothered to deal with a mayor diddling a teen in City Hall, and citizens think it is all keen as long as they get their bike lanes...

Speaking about sewer, water and garbage rates - we moved to Reno in November. Our rates for all of the above are less than 50% of what we paid in Portland. And the extra bonus is that we have no poo poo going into the Truckee River and we have a garbage can that is almost twice the size of the one we had in Portland at less than half the expense.

I'm using data from FHWA on average miles driven. The average Portlander drives about 10% less than that, according to city data.

Which has nothing to do with that figure's relationship to the "average sewer bill payer".

And the "why has my sewer bill gone up if biking has also gone up?" reasoning is fallacious.

That was my point exactly, Evan. Thanks for affirming it. And, it's the exact opposite of what you said. You called it "simply smart economics".

Commercial traffic - by which you mean freight? is not a "large" part of roadway use. Now you're making stuff up.

Nice try, Evan.
According to your own source (The FHWA), urban VMTs (vehicle miles traveled) by commercial vehicles ranges from about 5-7% in the US. The FHWA also estimates that commercial freight traffic on roadways is expected to almost double in the next 25 years.

And that's just freight--it excludes much of routine, daily commercial traffic like UPS, FedEx, local and regional delivery services, and retail hub deliveries. Look it up. You're welcome to argue whether those billions of VMTs are "significant".

The sewage system is built to handle our runoff. Clearly it will be scaled differently if the total runoff is lower.

Which is not what you said. You said "When some of those people decide to bike instead, your sewer bills are proportionately lower. This is simply smart economics."

The sewage system is built to handle our runoff. Clearly it will be scaled differently if the total runoff is lower.

Also, note that Mayor Creepy is taking the $20 million for the bike plan from...the BES "Green Streets" initiative, one of the goals of which is actually to REDUCE RUNOFF by making streets "green" through the installation of bioswales and whatnot. So, in fact, this bike plan could actually hurt runoff, not help it.

Dave J. brought up the best point regarding "green streets". This is pilferage of funds to another area without rhyme or reason.

The actual environmental benefits of green streets are probably greater than Portland's overall bike plan -- even though I do defend the advancement of bicycling in Portland but you cannot accomplish it by stealing funds (even though the pavers in Portland technically are super subsidized beyond any bicyclist).

"Want to really fix the pollution? Support DEQ in requiring heavy vehicles to modernize their dirty, old diesel engines, and get congress to do the same nationally."

That's a pipe dream. It was damn near impossible to get passenger cars to increase their MPG, and only did so probably from pressures from this entire "green" PR movement and high gas costs.

Try getting the trucking industry lobbyists to go on board with that piece of legislation.

mp97303:"The day I moved into my house in Houston, I was invited by my neighbor to a bbq where I met many other neighbors. Here in Salem, it took my neighbor over a year just to look up and nod when he saw me outside."

ws:Most people would prefer Houston over Salem...and that's not saying much for either place.

As much as we all like to trash the 2-wheelers, the real issue is using the Sewer and Water funds as a slush fund for whatever they see fit.

The debt these bastards are putting on the backs of us rate-payers is pure "sewer overflow"

Why not kill two t**ds w/ one stone. Replace the aging sewer system with a sewer/underground bicycle network of tunnels like a subway for bikes! Out of the rain and out of the way.

If there is any deals being sealed for a corporate takeover of municipal water, you can bet every last cent that the Paulsons, Neil, or both will be behind it.

I seem to remember in 1998 the City Council adopting a multi year Pedestrian Plan which was analagus and parallel to the new Bike Plan.

From my viewpoint here in outer SW noting -- zero zilch da nada nuttin - has been done in 12 years to implement any of the Pedestrian Plan. The "nothing has been done" observation is identical from the outer east side and far southeast as well. Slowly, the east side is beginning to recognize what the residential neighborhoods - not the dying downtown core - have been yelling about for 20 years or more.

Clinamen,

Sewage could flood your home. From Richmond, Calif., to Gary, Ind., to Fairbanks, Alaska, many communities have suffered at the hands of water corporations. Sewage has spilled into households and businesses, waterways are polluted and water quality has suffered.

All of which occur on a regular basis here, as it is.

I respect the work Mr. Manvel does. BUT, it seems to be a little bit of a stretch using reduced pollution from runoff to raid our sewer $. One could use that kind of logic to hijack the cash for any use--not that they don't already do that.

If decreased runoff is the reason Sewer revenues will pay for bike lanes, it is more than offset by the tons of effluent pouring from City Council meetings over the past few months.

Or (more seriously) how about all the new asphalt/surface parking in SoWhat? If the City is going to take credit for removing ethereal cars off some future road, shouldn't they be held responsible for the hundreds of new cars at OHSU's Park & Fly?

People arguing for more sidewalks in their neighborhood should probably tax themselves (local improvement district). I'm not sure of the public benefit of a sidewalk in a single-use neighborhood that benefits but a few people.

At least a bike path is more "public" in regards to to ability to be used by more people.

I'm surprised this has not come up already, this is all a back-door way to get bicyclists to fund our future maintenance needs:

- when the sewer and water systems need repairs, the money will come out of the bicycle registration fees. There should already be a big surplus built up in this fund, and it will only get larger as more people switch over to bikes

- since more people will be biking, and their trip frequency will increase, there will be more wear and tear on the tires, so those will have to be replaced more often. The bike tire tax will contribute even more to the fund.

There may be new uses for this fund to pay for the bike elevators that will be needed in our hill neighborhoods.

Sign me up, I can not believe my water/sewer bill now.

I'm getting in late on this but a lot of the comments here are from the usual Lib crowd. Folks, you continue to vote these people into office over people who hold conservative values. What do you expect? Anyone with an "R" after the name in this city is toast. This is the Hope and Change you all voted for, at the local level as well as the national level. How do you like $1MM per mile bike lanes you're going to pay for next.

Getting in late. Yep, the expected comment from the part that goes over the fence last.

oliver: You can sit around with all the anti-science folks and complain about how blizzards are god's proof that climate change is hogwash.
JK: Wrong. The proof of the hogwash is in the leaked CRU emails, the NASA emails, the BBC interview with CRU head Jones (he admits our warming rate is NOT unusual, Mediaeval warm period may have been as warm as today) and just simple logic (Roman, Egyptian, Minoan and othere were all warmer than the present. Why don’t you postpone worrying until those Viking Greenland settlements emerge from under the ice. (I haven’t even gotten into the manipulated data and coverup by the warming zealots.)

Thanks
JK

JK, how are you harmed by the climate change debate? does it make you feel guilty about driving a gas guzzler, if you do? or is it because it appears to be coming from the left and anything from the left is hogwash and always wrong?

Just why is it you side with the oil companies that are behind this anti-climate change movement..which also pays much of the salary of people like Rush Limbaugh... who is one of the most vocal anti-climate change voices..

If the green movement is so wrong, why is China and other countries also seeking alternative energy forms to fossil driven varieties currently in place..Are they stupid and manipulated by the American left too?

I know you site those decade old emails as your claim that its all bunk, but don't you think that of all the thousands of emails they went through to find the few ones you claim debunk the whole concept, can be found in any compilation of data on any controversial subject?

I hear insurance companies have either raised their rates or denied coverage on property with ocean fronts.. are they just manipulated by the American left too?

Just why is the whole debate so annoyig to you... just curious...

Adams Opens Interstate Bike Path System

Baltimore, MD(June 2, 2025) President Sam Adams today presided over groundbreaking ceremonies of the nation’s first Interstate Bike Path System(IBPS).

Adams, accompanied by First Partner Josh, in the opening remarks of a two hour long speech heralded the estimated 7 to 20 billion dollar project as being “unique”, “world-class” and “a model that other countries will rush to follow, emulate”.

Adams expects construction and other related jobs from the initial 12 thousand miles of bike paths to employ “tens of millions-at the very least”.

Echoing Treasury Secretary Randy Leonard, Adams warned Congress that if it failed to authorize further spending on the bike path system-“everyone-from Wall Street to Main Street-will face protracted, excruciatingly painful economic strangulation”.

And to reassure some skeptics he stressed that “these bike paths are for all Americans-not just bike riders”.

Tomorrow Adams will deliver the commencement address at the U.S. Naval Academy, Annapolis where, according to White House Chief of Staff Amy Ruiz, he is expected to call for the “complete disarmament” of the Marine Corps(a condition which Beijing has made contingent upon the U.S. receiving new loan guarantees).

“The Administration looks forward to working with the Marine Corps in its transition from a violent prone framework to a non lethal yet far more sustainable paradigm. We wish the Corps our very best in its future efforts to partner with their stakeholders, other service branches, and the public at large in arriving at nonviolent dispute resolution solutions.”, Ruiz said.

It's so nice to see that our city government is as unaccountable to anyone as our federal government is.

What are we supposed to do?

We citizens have NO POWER AT ALL!

The hacks are gonna fund this all the while our bus service is being chopped into little pieces, wonderful, stupendous.

Just why is the whole debate so annoyig to you

Funny, the Left has been saying for some time that the debate is OVER. They are right and anyone who questions them is a "denier."

That's that bugs me....

...a bike path is more public than a sidewalk? ..."single use neighborhoods." WTF is a "single use neighborhood"?

So, those who can't afford a bike aren't members of the public? Or wheel chair users? Once upon a time, Portland had a plan to progressively ramp all sidewalks. People with mobility issues are still waiting.

The bike thing has gone from being a mode of transportation in a city we all share to become a wacky religious cult. The more I hear, the more it reminds me of Scientology.

Robert: JK, how are you harmed by the climate change debate?
JK: The same way YOU will be harmed if these radicals have their way:
* Increased energy prices to the point that you cannot afford to heat your home and drive your car - that is how cap & trade works - it raises the price until YOU are forced to cut 80% of your energy use. It is directed at YOU, not some corporation.
* Increased food prices.
* More restrictions on where we can live
* More density in our neighborhoods
* Being forced to use slow, wasteful mass transit.

Robert: does it make you feel guilty about driving a gas guzzler, if you do? or is it because it appears to be coming from the left and anything from the left is hogwash and always wrong?
JK: Always be sure to include the ad hominem. It avoids having to talk about facts.

Robert: Just why is it you side with the oil companies that are behind this anti-climate change movement..
JK: You need to study up a bit and quit making the left your only information source. The fact is that the climate alarmists have been getting BILLIONS for yelling wolf while the skeptics have gotten a tiny percentage of that amount:
The US government has spent over $79 billion since 1989 on policies related to climate change, including science and technology research, administration, education campaigns, foreign aid, and tax breaks. (scienceandpublicpolicy.org/originals/climate_money.html )

Robert: which also pays much of the salary of people like Rush Limbaugh... who is one of the most vocal anti-climate change voices..
JK: You need to study up a bit on this too. For instance the CRU (the foundation of the IPCC) solicited funding from Shell oil and Exxon International. Emails 968691929.txt & 959187643.txt and received funding from British Petroleum, Shell, Greenpeace International and the World Wildlife Fund for Nature (WWF) (cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/about/history/)

Robert: If the green movement is so wrong, why is China and other countries also seeking alternative energy forms to fossil driven varieties currently in place.
JK: They are going to make money selling that junk to us while they continue to use the only practical sources of energy: coal, nuke & hydro (all things Oregon hates)

Robert: I know you site those decade old emails
JK: You need quit listening to liars like Al Gore - those emails run up to Thu, 12 Nov 2009 14:17:44 (email 1258053464.txt, From: "Thorne, Peter (Climate Research)" To: "Phil Jones" Subject: Letter draft) BTY that is 5 days (or less) before their release, so they are very up to date.

Robert: as your claim that its all bunk, but don't you think that of all the thousands of emails they went through to find the few ones you claim debunk the whole concept, can be found in any compilation of data on any controversial subject?
JK: You only need to find one confession to a crime to have a just suspicion that a crime was committed. Here are several from the emails:
* Threats to delete data subject to FOI. (a crime if deleted) (1107454306.txt)
* Requests for others to delete emails subject to FOI (probable crime) (1212073451.txt)
* Hiding flaws in the data (the famous trick) ( 942777075.txt) (39154709.txt)
* Falsification of data to be published in papers and IPCC reports. (Probable academic fraud) (1256735067.txt) (39154709.txt)
* Request to forge a date on a paper to meet the IPCC deadline (Probable academic fraud) (1189722851.txt)
* Falsifying research paid for by taxpayer funds. (Probable crime) (1254108338.txt) (39154709.txt)
* Trying to suppress the Mediaeval Warm Period (1054736277.txt)
* Admission that climate is cooling, while telling the world it is warming. (1120593115.txt)
* Abuse of trust as a peer-reviewer. (1089318616.txt)
* Biasing the IPCC report to emphasis warming (1177890796.txt) (938031546.txt)
Have a look at: sustainableoregon.com/selectedemails.html

Robert: Just why is the whole debate so annoyig to you... just curious...
JK: Because if the warmers get their way, many people will suffer. Too bad you can’t see that.

Here are some information sources if you are interested:
SustainabelOregon.com
wattsupwiththat.com
bishophill.squarespace.com
climateaudit.org (Run by the guy that broke Al’s hockey stick)
www.junkscience.com
climatedepot.com

Thanks
JK

You know, the thing that pisses me off most about this is that the cyclists on the street (i.e. me) reap the negative reactions caused by crap like this. I didn't ask for that 20 million. Hell, I moved here from the Minneapolis and think that the amount of infrastructure here for bikes is already fantastic. But things like this mean I face more pissed off people yelling at me when I'm just trying to get from point A to point B, hopefully in a manner that doesn't slow anyone else down. I would like to take a moment to tell anyone who's still listening (all three of you) that some of us on a bike don't have any particular agenda, and could care less what kind of car you drive. We just like the exercise and the wind in our face.

Also, JK, prepping those email references you have to the CRU emails with a link to the body of the files would be good. I don't really want to go down that rabbit hole, but if you're going to cite to them, it just makes it a little more friendly than Googling for the stupid things. I'm not looking for Blue Book or anything, but a little html before the number.txt references start flying would be nice. I don't exactly hug the CRU emails to my chest and read them before bed like a copy of King James' (or in my case the Tanakh). I'm not familiar with each number, chapter and verse.

JustAnotherDamnStudent Also, JK, prepping those email references you have to the CRU emails with a link to the body of the files would be good. I don't really want to go down that rabbit hole, but if you're going to cite to them, it just makes it a little more friendly than Googling for the stupid things.
JK: Sorry about that. All of the emails can be found in a searchable database at (just enter a word or email name or number):
http://www.anelegantchaos.org/cru/index.php
The actual leaked file is here: http://junkscience.com/FOIA/ (I chose FOI2009.zip )

JustAnotherDamnStudent I'm not looking for Blue Book or anything, but a little html before the number.txt references start flying would be nice.
JK: The problem is spam filters on some blogs are very restrictive about links, so instead of remembering the (unpublished) limits of links per message, I just post the root name.

Thanks
JK

Damn, if the water and sewer rates weren't high enough..

The last bill I paid, I paid over the phone and spoke to a water bureau employee. I asked her--in all seriousness--if she could explain why the bills were so high in this town. I wasn't trying to heckle her--I was just looking for a good answer. She sighed, then gave me the standard rundown of aging infrastructure, need for improvement, etc. You could tell she was sick of repeating the same thing over and over.

If the city does indeed take some of that quite exorbitant amount of money to pay for bike infrastructure, well, not sure how to feel. Like we have a choice.

It's be nice if the city had a better form of gov't--the city broken up into wards with elected aldermen representing each instead of the Mayberry system we have now. Does the city really even give a f*** about the outer-east neighborhoods? Or anything east of 60th or so? Hard to think so..

People of Portland, you haven't seen anything yet. Wait until 2012 when this stuff hits the fan, 'course it's only a billion dollar bill coming to a sewer near you.

http://www.oregonlive.com/environment/index.ssf/2010/01/milestone_report_on_portland_h.html

Thanks JK. I hadn't considered the spam filter. It makes total sense when you point that out. And thanks for the link to the database.

JK, I dont know how valid the climate change movement is or isn't.. but I do know a little bit about peak oil.. Im sure I even have an FBI file with my name on it just because I attended Portland Peak Oil meeting for about a year.. Do you know anything about peak oil (natural gas soon too)?

Peak oil doesnt mean were out of oil. It just means that weve accessed most of the easily accessible oil there is and what's left is of less quality and more expensive to harvest.. not to mention, most of the refineries have to be re-fitted to process sour crude which is an additional cost to the oil industry..

For the same reasons you noted that higher energy cost will become a great burden to us commoners because of the climate change movement, I can say the same thing applies to the peak oil phenomenon..both events are dissed by the right and the oil companies..

But, Ive seen many videos with some powerful people laying claim to the peak oil theory, such as Dick Cheney for one.. and I can understand why the oil companies don't want to go along with anything that will cause a reduction in sales and profit.

So in conclusion, I wonder if the leaders of the climate change movement have co-opted climate change as the face of their goals to reduce energy consumption because its an easier sell than to say weve used up half of the worlds crude oil supply and its going to get more expensive for everything to do with our lives..

But what I don't understand is why is it so difficult for people to realize that nothing last forever.. and easily accesible crude oil is included.. the oil company cheerleaders can say all they want about how much oil there still is out there and there might be, but its the ease in accessibility that is going to cause higher prices... and what a benefit to the oil companies if they can point their finger at the green movement and say its all their fault...

I liked it when bikes were under the radar and the idiots only rode while the sun was shining.

Now that the City is trumping up a green "plan" and throwing money at it with little consideration for education, responsible bicyclists who ride because they can't afford to drive will be tossed into the basket with the rest of the moonbats and eventually we'll all be charged more to ride on roads that I've ridden on for years without green boxes, bike lanes or any other sort of accommodation that's unnecessary if you follow common sense and the rules of the road.

For years the city had little to no time for bicycles. We just had occasional quirky politicians (Goldschmidt, Clark) who rode bikes. Bike to Work Day was set up and managed by local bike clubs (PWTC, TCBU, etc.) and bike shops with almost everything (including Pioneer Courthouse Square waiving any sort of rent, poster design and printing, food, coffee, roses) all donated. PSU even donated tables which were ferried to the square by sympathetic local cabbie.

We had a great Bicycle Repair Collective which was privately owned, offered great service and accessibility and taught people how to maintain their bikes and as far as I know it got not one cent from the city.

Bike to Work day and the work of various bike clubs never cost citizens a cent; compare that with the boatloads of money being thrown at bicycling today.

My biggest complaint, though, is against the idea that everybody should bike and the only thing stopping them is fear of being hit, so we have to accommodate, accommodate and make things easy for the bicyclist. There are a lot of reasons people don't bike nor should everyone bike.

Sure, some sorts of general protections make sense, just as they would for vehicular traffic but separate bike paths that have to be built, repaired, swept regularly, and that reinforce the notion that bicycles are not vehicles subject to the same laws that any other vehicle on the roads are? Baaaad idea. Because somewhere along the line the bicyclist has to travel on a road to get to that sylvan bike path . . . and motorists are more distracted today then ever before.

See John Forrester's SAFE CYCLING page for his take on the idiocy of bike paths:

http://www.johnforester.com/Articles/facilities.htm

Forrester has been speaking up for responsible and safe cycling for many years. He's not a wingnut.

Here's a quote:

"For decades American society accepted incompetent operation by cyclists as a consequence of keeping cyclists out of the way of motorists . . . Now government demands, as a patriotic measure, that bikeways be installed specifically to encourage a greater volume of incompetent cycling."

Evan,

You've been front and center in the wholesale misrepresentation of the bicycle's contribution to our transportation system.
That level of contribution is and will be miniscule despite your fanatic and chronic misrepresentations.
Mayor Creepy and company are implementing your agenda and it is one based upon the advocacy of dishonest people.

The planning regime around here has traveld down a path which relies upon one fantasy after another while further relying upon the concepts which never move beyond your theoretical world.

At the end of the latest chapter and 1/2 billion more gone to bike infrastructure there will be no more of a contribution form bike then there is now.
Yet somehow you and yours will concoct a benefit while demanding even more of the same.

Robert Peak oil doesnt mean were out of oil. It just means that weve accessed most of the easily accessible oil there is

Baloney. Check out the Oregon House action this week - they extended the ban on drilling for another decade. It's easily accessible; they simply won't allow drilling. Peak oil is a myth.

Robert how are you harmed by the climate change debate? does it make you feel guilty about driving a gas guzzler, if you do?

In Japan, the Hummer H3 qualifies as fuel-efficient. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/13/business/global/13hummer.html

And actually, given the environmental impacts associated with producing a Prius, the Hummer is the more environmentally-friendly choice.

MAX-

You proved nothing with your comment on the Oregon House extending the ban.... you read and commented on a cut and paste job...

I know theres oil out in the ocean and its the oil I was saying is more difficult to reach, thus more costly...

"Peak oil doesnt mean were out of oil. It just means that weve accessed most of the easily accessible oil there is...".. I even qualified my statement by saying "most" of the easily accessible oil..

PS - If you want to believe that oil replenishes itself faster than we are using it up, go ahead.. I know what I'm planning for.. and oh yeah, the war in Iraq and Afghanistan is about peace and freedom too..

Deny what you want.. and of course even the Oregon DOE is being foolish by also providing evidence in meetings Ive attended that the peak has been reached....

Oil is infinite. All resources are infinite. What's wrong with you folks? Don't be worrying about using up energy sources like oil--we'll never run out.

And the planet? That's infinite too. It has to be, to hold those infinite resources. Don't be worrying about all those "measurements" and "latitude/longitude" lines--the planet is not a finite body. It goes on forever.

And people? We can be infinite too. There's no such thing as too many humans. I mean, how could there be, if resources are infinite?

So use the oil! Grow the population! There's enough for everybody, for infinity years! Peak oil is a myth! How could we run out?

[insert long, rambling rant with pasted links to authoritative figures from Karlock here].

ws -

Bike path "more public"?

You do know that state law prohibits peds from walking in / on bike lanes and paths. right?

Well, we will eventually do away with all this nonsense and live our lives in virtual reality, using tiny, graphene (carbon) nano transistors by the billions tucked under the skin, connected to cloud computing.......

I can hardly wait (not!).

Back to a dose of reality.

John W:Sign me up – I can not believe my water/sewer bill now.

Neither will the people and businesses when they get their bill each year the rate increases. The Portland Water Bureau proposed rate increases below:

FY 2009-10 17.9%

FY 2010-11 18.9%

FY 2011-12 19.0%

FY 2012-13 18.8%

FY 2013-14 19.0%

In addition to the above proposed water usage charge, the base charge will also be increased.

It is time for community outrage!

Robert: Peak oil doesnt mean were out of oil. It just means that weve accessed most of the easily accessible oil there is and what's left is of less quality and more expensive to harvest.
JK: But they all ignore the fact that technology is making yesterday’s impossible into today’s routine. What was the deepest oil well in 1900? Nowadays the have production wells 5 miles down. That means that we have increased the potential sources by a huge amount, probably exponentially.

In order to believe in peak oil, you have to ignore economics, chemistry and history:

economics (supply goes up with price)
That is why we have recently had a series of dramatic announcements of new discoveries - the recent high oil prices have brought much new exploration which has found more supplies. (Just like we all learned in Econ 101 - you did pay attention, didn’t you?)

chemistry (you can make the stuff)
The Fischer–Tropsch (see fischer-tropsch.org) process and the Bergius process, both used from the 1930s on, make liquid fuels form coal. Methane instead of coal can also be used a starting point. Sasol (http://www.sasol.com/) has been producing commercial quantities of oil from both processes for years.

History (Hitler ran a war on manmade oil).
The Role of Synthetic Fuel In World War II Germany Said this: “The percentage of synthetic fuels compared to the yield from all sources grew from 22 percent to more than 50 percent by 1943"
(airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/aureview/1981/jul-aug/becker.htm)

Robert: But, Ive seen many videos with some powerful people laying claim to the peak oil theory, such as Dick Cheney for one.
JK: There is a nice write up about a previous case of major, well respected scientists ignoring evidence at: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/02/12/are-scientists-always-smart/#more-16386

But how about the consensus? One of the most famous cases of consensus science gone ridiculous involved the theory of Continental Drift. In 1912, a German scientist named Alfred Wegener introduced the theory that the continents were not stationary, but rather moved.

Any child can see that the continents fit together like a jigsaw puzzle, yet the scientific community took over 50 years to stop ridiculing Wegener and accept his theory.

Robert: So in conclusion, I wonder if the leaders of the climate change movement have co-opted climate change as the face of their goals to reduce energy consumption because its an easier sell than to say weve used up half of the worlds crude oil supply and its going to get more expensive for everything to do with our lives..
JK: Oil prices are determined by price-fixing, not shortage. Production is intentionally limited to raise prices - there is much more current supply than demand. If that was NOT the case, OPEC would not have cut production a while back.

Robert: But what I don't understand is why is it so difficult for people to realize that nothing last forever.. and easily accesible crude oil is included.. the oil company cheerleaders can say all they want about how much oil there still is out there and there might be, but its the ease in accessibility that is going to cause higher prices..
JK: Wrong. Technology is improving accessability. See above. What is missing is the political will of the NIMBYs and those who want to de-industrialize the world (and thus unwittingly kill a billion or so people.)

Thanks
JK

Nothing like a good dose of Karlock to whip these people into a fervor. I can hardly wait....the ad hominems will be flying like crazy. Oooh, this is gonna be funny.

PS: ecohuman must be really angry, because he dropped the whole e.e. cummings thing...

JK, don't all those improved technologies add onto the cost of harvesting that fuel.. so were going to get higher energy cost either way it seems..

By the way, I don't follow Al Gore and never saw his film that was so popular a few years back.. as I stated, I got involved with the Portland Peak Oil (PPO) group and gained my knowledge of the situation there. I did not find them to be radical, just trying to prepare for a time when energy cost were going to be much higher and that time is coming..(there should be a group for healthcare insurance like there is for peak oil, as it seems those rates are rising faster than energy is)..

I've heard Thom Hartmann of KPOJ fame talk about it and he has written a book about peak oil also..Have you ever called into his show (9am-12noon M-F) to present your side of this issue.. I'd like to here his responses as I think you present a reasonable counter claim... Maybe you could email him and ask for some time on this subject.. I think his book is titled something like, The Last Hours of Sunlight"... I will email him and tell him you might be contacting him.. I don't want to post his email here but if you google his name, you can get it from his website.. and if you two do connect, I'd like to know when the radio debate occurs..

JK, don't all those improved technologies add onto the cost of harvesting that fuel.. so were going to get higher energy cost either way it seems..
JK: I'd think not, because technology makes thing cheaper. For instance gasoline today is not that far away from what it way 50-75 years ago, inflation adjusted.

Thanks
JK

Please keep in mind:

Correlation does not imply causation.

Or worse:

Correlation proves causation.

Robert and Karlock . . . can possibly you take this to private e-mail?

can possibly you take this to private e-mail?
Why? Are you afraid of learning something?

Thanks
JK


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In Vino Veritas

Chloe, Pinot Grigio, Valdadige 2013
Edmunds St. John, Bone-Jolly Gamay Noir 2013
Kirkland, Pinot Grigio, Friuli 2013
St. Francis, Red Splash 2011
Rodney Strong, Canernet, Alexander Valley 2011
Erath, Pinot Blanc 2013
Taylor Fladgate, Porto 2007
Portuga, Rose 2013
Domaine Digioia-Royer, Chambolle-Musigny, Vielles Vignes Les Premieres 2008
Locations, F Red Blend
El Perro Verde, Rueda 2013
Chateau Ste. Michelle, Indian Wells Red 2
If You See Kay, Red 2011
Turnbull, Old Bull Red 2010
Cherry Tart, Cherry Pie Pinot Noir 2012
Trader Joe's Grand Reserve Cabernet, Oakville 2012
Benton Lane, Pinot Gris 2012
Campo Viejo, Rioja, Reserva 2008
Haden Fig, Pinot Noir 2012
Pendulum Red 2011
Vina Real, Plata, Crianza Rioja 2009
Edmunds St. John, Bone/Jolly, Gamay Noir Rose 2013
Bookwalter, Subplot No. 26
Ayna, Tempranillo 2011
Pete's Mountain, Pinot Noir, Haley's Block 2010
Apaltagua, Reserva Camenere 2012
Lugana, San Benedetto 2012
Argyle Brut 2007
Wildewood Pinot Gris 2012
Anciano, Tempranillo Reserva 2007
Santa Rita, Reserva Cabernet 2009
Casone, Toscana 2008
Fonseca Porto, Bin No. 27
Louis Jadot, Pouilly-Fuissé 2011
Trader Joe's, Grower's Reserve Pinot Noir 2012
Zenato, Lugana San Benedetto 2012
Vintjs, Cabernet 2010
14 Hands, Hot to Trot White 2012
Rainstorm, Oregon Pinot Gris 2012
Silver Palm, North Coast Cabernet 2011
Andrew Rich, Gewurtztraminer 2008
Rodney Strong, Charlotte's Home Sauvignon Blanc 2012
Canoe Ridge, Pinot Gris, Expedition 2012
Edmunds St. John, Bone-Jolly Gamay Noir Rose 2012
Dark Horse, Big Red Blend No. 01A
Elk Cove, Pinot Noir Rose 2012
Fletcher, Shiraz 2010
Picollo, Gavi 2011
Domaine Eugene Carrel, Jongieux 2012
Eyrie, Pinot Blanc 2010
Atticus, Pinot Noir 2010
Walter Scott, Pinot Noir, Holstein 2011
Shingleback, Cabernet, Davey Estate 2010
Coppola, Sofia Rose 2012
Joel Gott, 851 Cabernet 2010
Pol Roget Reserve Sparkling Wine
Mount Eden Chardonnay, Santa Cruz Mountains 2009
Rombauer Chardonnay, Napa Valley 2011
Beringer, Chardonnay, Napa Reserve 2011
Kim Crawford, Sauvignon Blanc 2011
Schloss Vollrads, Spaetlese Rheingau 2010
Belle Glos, Pinot Noir, Clark & Telephone 2010
WillaKenzie, Pinot Noir, Estate Cuvee 2010
Blackbird Vineyards, Arise, Red 2010
Chauteau de Beaucastel, Chateauneuf-du-Pape 2005
Northstar, Merlot 2008
Feather, Cabernet 2007
Silver Oak, Cabernet, Alexander Valley 2002
Silver Oak, Cabernet, Napa Valley 2002
Trader Joe's, Chardonnay, Grower's Reserve 2012
Silver Palm, Cabernet, North Coast 2010
Shingleback, Cabernet, Davey Estate 2010
E. Guigal, Cotes du Rhone 2009
Santa Margherita, Pinot Grigio 2011
Alamos, Cabernet 2011
Cousino Macul, Cabernet, Anitguas Reservas 2009
Dreaming Tree Cabernet 2010
1967, Toscana 2009
Charamba, Douro 2008
Horse Heaven Hills, Cabernet 2010
Lorelle, Horse Heaven Hills Pinot Grigio 2011
Avignonesi, Montepulciano 2004
Lorelle, Willamette Valley Pinot Noir 2011
Villa Antinori, Toscana 2007
Mercedes Eguren, Cabernet Sauvignon 2009
Lorelle, Columbia Valley Cabernet 2011
Purple Moon, Merlot 2011
Purple Moon, Chardonnnay 2011
Horse Heaven Hills, Cabernet 2010
Lorelle, Horse Heaven Hills Pinot Grigio 2011
Avignonesi, Montepulciano 2004
Lorelle, Willamette Valley Pinot Noir 2011
Villa Antinori, Toscana 2007
Mercedes Eguren, Cabernet Sauvignon 2009
Lorelle, Columbia Valley Cabernet 2011
Purple Moon, Merlot 2011
Purple Moon, Chardonnnay 2011
Abacela, Vintner's Blend No. 12
Opula Red Blend 2010
Liberte, Pinot Noir 2010
Chateau Ste. Michelle, Indian Wells Red Blend 2010
Woodbridge, Chardonnay 2011
King Estate, Pinot Noir 2011
Famille Perrin, Cotes du Rhone Villages 2010
Columbia Crest, Les Chevaux Red 2010
14 Hands, Hot to Trot White Blend

The Occasional Book

Phil Stanford - White House Call Girl
John Kaplan & Jon R. Waltz - The Trial of Jack Ruby
Kent Haruf - Eventide
David Halberstam - Summer of '49
Norman Mailer - The Naked and the Dead
Maria Dermoȗt - The Ten Thousand Things
William Faulkner - As I Lay Dying
Markus Zusak - The Book Thief
Christopher Buckley - Thank You for Smoking
William Shakespeare - Othello
Joseph Conrad - Heart of Darkness
Bill Bryson - A Short History of Nearly Everything
Cheryl Strayed - Tiny Beautiful Things
Sara Varon - Bake Sale
Stephen King - 11/22/63
Paul Goldstein - Errors and Omissions
Mark Twain - A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court
Steve Martin - Born Standing Up: A Comic's Life
Beverly Cleary - A Girl from Yamhill, a Memoir
Kent Haruf - Plainsong
Hope Larson - A Wrinkle in Time, the Graphic Novel
Rudyard Kipling - Kim
Peter Ames Carlin - Bruce
Fran Cannon Slayton - When the Whistle Blows
Neil Young - Waging Heavy Peace
Mark Bego - Aretha Franklin, the Queen of Soul (2012 ed.)
Jenny Lawson - Let's Pretend This Never Happened
J.D. Salinger - Franny and Zooey
Charles Dickens - A Christmas Carol
Timothy Egan - The Big Burn
Deborah Eisenberg - Transactions in a Foreign Currency
Kurt Vonnegut Jr. - Slaughterhouse Five
Kathryn Lance - Pandora's Genes
Cheryl Strayed - Wild
Fyodor Dostoyevsky - The Brothers Karamazov
Jack London - The House of Pride, and Other Tales of Hawaii
Jack Walker - The Extraordinary Rendition of Vincent Dellamaria
Colum McCann - Let the Great World Spin
Niccolò Machiavelli - The Prince
Harper Lee - To Kill a Mockingbird
Emma McLaughlin & Nicola Kraus - The Nanny Diaries
Brian Selznick - The Invention of Hugo Cabret
Sharon Creech - Walk Two Moons
Keith Richards - Life
F. Sionil Jose - Dusk
Natalie Babbitt - Tuck Everlasting
Justin Halpern - S#*t My Dad Says
Mark Herrmann - The Curmudgeon's Guide to Practicing Law
Barry Glassner - The Gospel of Food
Phil Stanford - The Peyton-Allan Files
Jesse Katz - The Opposite Field
Evelyn Waugh - Brideshead Revisited
J.K. Rowling - Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone
David Sedaris - Holidays on Ice
Donald Miller - A Million Miles in a Thousand Years
Mitch Albom - Have a Little Faith
C.S. Lewis - The Magician's Nephew
F. Scott Fitzgerald - The Great Gatsby
William Shakespeare - A Midsummer Night's Dream
Ivan Doig - Bucking the Sun
Penda Diakité - I Lost My Tooth in Africa
Grace Lin - The Year of the Rat
Oscar Hijuelos - Mr. Ives' Christmas
Madeline L'Engle - A Wrinkle in Time
Steven Hart - The Last Three Miles
David Sedaris - Me Talk Pretty One Day
Karen Armstrong - The Spiral Staircase
Charles Larson - The Portland Murders
Adrian Wojnarowski - The Miracle of St. Anthony
William H. Colby - Long Goodbye
Steven D. Stark - Meet the Beatles
Phil Stanford - Portland Confidential
Rick Moody - Garden State
Jonathan Schwartz - All in Good Time
David Sedaris - Dress Your Family in Corduroy and Denim
Anthony Holden - Big Deal
Robert J. Spitzer - The Spirit of Leadership
James McManus - Positively Fifth Street
Jeff Noon - Vurt

Road Work

Miles run year to date: 319
At this date last year: 172
Total run in 2013: 257
In 2012: 129
In 2011: 113
In 2010: 125
In 2009: 67
In 2008: 28
In 2007: 113
In 2006: 100
In 2005: 149
In 2004: 204
In 2003: 269


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