He looks as though he'll be enjoying my money -- and a lot of other people's.
Comments (15)
Jack,
I know they always say to take the 50% now, but so many of these winners end up broke. There are other new factors too such as the possible collapse of the dollar, the banks, Oregon, and the United States.
Still it would worry me greatly if my first official act after winning would be to give half of it away.
I've seen the math and I know the advantages of doing it like this guy if you invest wisely.
But I think I would screw it up as so many people have before me.
I would make do with 400 grand a year for 25 years rather than take the 5 million now. How about the factor of how fast the years go by as you get older?
Notice how this guy's already talking about a 500 thousand dollar house.
After taxes, that 5 million is down to what? 3 plus and now he's going to spend one unit of 500 grand leaving him with 5 left.
But what gets me is the tone when people discuss what they'd do. It's amazing how brilliant most broke people sound when they're talking about how to manage money. They always talk as if they'd be financial wizards - like they couldn't screw it up. I have to wonder - if they're so good with money - why aren't they rich already?
With interest rates as lousy as they are right now, the 25-year payout is a better deal than it used to be.
I've crunched some numbers that I think are right, and they show this pretty conclusively. Let's say you win a "jackpot" of $10.2 million, which is what it was this week. Your combined state and federal tax rate on that is going to be something like 40-45%. The lottery folks may withhold only 33% from the check, but the hit come April 15 is going to be higher than that. Let's say it's 40%.
Here are your two options:
Option 1. They pay you $5.1 million in cash pre-tax, which after tax is $3.06 million. If you put that into an investment and don't touch it for 25 years, here's what will be there at the end of year 25, depending on what after-tax rate of return you get on your investments:
At 3%: $6.41 million
At 5%: $10.36 million
At 6.25%: $13.93 million
At 10%: $33.15 million
Option 2. They pay you $408,000 a year for 25 years, which after taxes is $244,800. If you take those payments and put them into investments, here is what you'll have at the end of year 25 at the same after-tax rates of return:
At 3%: $8.93 million
At 5%: $11.68 million
At 6.25%: $13.91 million
At 10%: $24.08 million
From this, you can see that to make the cash option better, you'd have to make more than 6% a year after tax on your investments. That's not impossible to do, but it's not as easy as it used to be.
By these calculations, you'll do better with the up-front cash payout only if you can make more than 6.2374% a year on it, after tax.
Of course, this ciphering ignores the fact that most lottery winners don't act rationally. "A $300 speeding ticket? No problem." That ain't Phil Knight talking -- that's Qyntel Woods.
Thanks for crunching the numbers. My more fringe analysis came down to what would happen if the dollar fails and is replaced by a new currency such as the Amero? If you took the payments, would you still get paid anything or would the accompanying meltdown sort of mean you were out of luck? Crazy as that sounds, the 25-year payment plan is a bet on our future stability that is getting harder to justify.
Could you imagine kicking yourself in a few years, because you didn't take the 50% payment, buy gold and flee to an island in the South Pacific?
I still say the 25-year payments are safer for someone like me.
The trouble with becoming an instant millionaire is that relative poverty is actually a form of self-control.
I've met several people worth 100s of millions including Bob Pamplin and they're always described as eccentric. But I maintain we're all eccentric - most of us just don't have a way to express it.
So one thing this new Mega-bucks winner is going to find out is whether or not he has any interests that only surface now. I mean things he might not even know about.
I read Pamplin has a collection of Chinese art. Things like that.
The person who most closely mirrors what I'd probably do is Paul Allen. If I had billions I would definitely spend serious money buying Jimi Hendrix guitars and Eric Clapton's as Paul Allen has.
I'd love to own one of George Harrison's guitars.
As a mere millionaire, I would buy tens of thousands worth of normal vintage guitars, no doubt about that. I like being around them. The house would look like a music store.
So while I'm not materialistic, if I had the money, that would leap out and cost a fortune.
As far as buying a sports team, I wouldn't do that I don't think. But if I did, I'd definitely pick a few games a year where I played. Get some friends together and take on the Lakers. I could see that. We'd lose of course, but I would love to trash talk Kobe for a couple of hours.
The buy-gold-and-run thing sounds better every day. May I be so lucky as to have to make that decision.
I'd probably take the $3 million up front. Pay off the mortgage, have one round of some serious fun, and take the rest of the $2.5 million and throw it into a bunch of pretty safe investments. Even if they cranked out 3% after tax, that's $75,000 a year forever, and the $3 million's still there for your kids, or whoever.
If you want to really go nuts, hit the Powerball when the jackpot's good. Then you can tack a zero onto the end of all the above numbers. I'd pee my pants with that one.
Jack, there's one other thing to factor into the take it all now or take some of it later and that's your age when you win. If you were 65 and your family typically did not make it past 80 it would be better to enjoy what you can now and forget about later when you probably are not going to be able to enjoy it that much anyway.
If these winners spend an average of $1000 a day the entire sum will be gone in 3 1/2 years if the net $3.5 million.
The $500k house is a good start on that road. They better get a single wide as back up housing.
First when the Megabucks Lottery jackpot is over $9 million, the after tax expected return per dollar wagered is actually greater than a dollar. The game has a positive return.
Second: The world is not imploding. Buying gold is an ill advised thing to do with your money. Reminds me of the housing bubble a few years ago. I tell people this and like back in 2006 they think I am crazy. The long run average cost of mining and producing gold is around $400 an ounce. Commodity prices in the long run gravitate to their long run average cost. There is no shortage of places to mine it and once produced gold is not consumed in the same way many other commodities are.
"The world is not imploding" ... no, it's not. The human race is cooking.
"... they're so good with money - why aren't they rich already?"
Didja ever notice that rich people of your acquaintance never buy lottery tickets. Another thing: I've never heard 'successful' people talk about what they saw on TV lately ... for that matter, ones I've been around don't watch TV.
- - -
But explain something to me. Winner Woods is reported to be 34-yrs-old and his oldest child is 20 ? ? ?
He wanted it [the new $500k house] big enough to have some of his nine and his wife's 13 immediate family members be able to come for visits and “share the joy” with them.
Charamba, Douro 2008
Horse Heaven Hills, Cabernet 2010
Lorelle, Horse Heaven Hills Pinot Grigio 2011
Avignonesi, Montepulciano 2004
Lorelle, Willamette Valley Pinot Noir 2011
Villa Antinori, Toscana 2007
Mercedes Eguren, Cabernet Sauvignon 2009
Lorelle, Columbia Valley Cabernet 2011
Purple Moon, Merlot 2011
Purple Moon, Chardonnnay 2011
Abacela, Vintner's Blend No. 12
Opula Red Blend 2010
Liberte, Pinot Noir 2010
Chateau Ste. Michelle, Indian Wells Red Blend 2010
Woodbridge, Chardonnay 2011
King Estate, Pinot Noir 2011
Famille Perrin, Cotes du Rhone Villages 2010
Columbia Crest, Les Chevaux Red 2010
14 Hands, Hot to Trot White Blend
Familia Bianchi, Malbec 2009
Terrapin Cellars, Pinot Gris 2011
Columbia Crest, Walter Clore Private Reserve 2009
Campo Viejo, Rioja, Termpranillo 2010
Ravenswood, Cabernet Sauvignon 2009
Quinta das Amoras, Vinho Tinto 2010
Waterbrook, Reserve Merlot 2009
Lorelle, Horse Heaven Hills, Pinot Grigio 2011
Tarantas, Rose
Chateau Lajarre, Bordeaux 2009
La Vielle Ferme, Rose 2011
Benvolio, Pinot Grigio 2011
Nobilo Icon, Pinot Noir 2009
Lello, Douro Tinto 2009
Quinson Fils, Cotes de Provence Rose 2011
Anindor, Pinot Gris 2010
Buenas Ondas, Syrah Rose 2010
Les Fiefs d'Anglars, Malbec 2009
14 Hands, Pinot Gris 2011
Conundrum 2012
Condes de Albarei, Albariño 2011
Columbia Crest, Walter Clore Private Reserve 2007
Penelope Sanchez, Garnacha Syrah 2010
Canoe Ridge, Merlot 2007
Atalaya do Mar, Godello 2010
Vega Montan, Mencia
Benvolio, Pinot Grigio
Nobilo Icon, Pinot Noir, Marlborough 2009
Portuga, Rose 2011
Revelation, Chardonnay, Pays d'Oc 2010
Beaulieu, Cabernet, Rutherford 2005
Monte Alto, Tinto Reserva 2005
Chateau Ste. Michelle, Cabernet, Indian Wells 2009
Espiral, Vinho Rose
Vin-Koru, Pinot Gris 2011
14 Hands, Hot to Trot Red 2009
Rodney Strong, Cabernet, Sonoma 2009
Abacela, Vintner's Blend #11
Portuga, White 2010
La Bourgeoisie, Red 2009
Januik, Red 2009
Three Rivers, River's Red 2008
Kirkland, Alexander Valley Merlot 2008
Muga, Rioja Rose 2010
Quinta das Amoras, Vinho Tinto 2009
Mauro Molino, Barbera d'Alba 2009
Garda Chiaretto Rose
Columbia Crest, Two Vines Vineyard 10 White
Chateau Ste. Michelle, Pinot Gris, Columbia Valley 2009
L'Hortus, Rose de Saignee 2010
Maculan, Pino & Toi 2008
McKinley Springs, Bombing Range Red 2008
Trader Joe's Pinot Gris 2009
Montes Alpha, Cabernet 2007
Gran Sasso, Sangiovese, Terre di Chieti 2009
Garda, Classico Chiaretto Rose
Beaulieu, Cabernet, Rutherford 1999
Picos del Montgo, Tempranillo 2008
Chateau de Montmirail, Vacqueyras 2008
La Granja 360, Syrah 2009
Montgras, Carmenere Reserva 2009
Lange, Pinot Gris 2009
Columbia Crest, Horse Heaven Hills Cabernet 2008
Kirkland, Pinot Grigio 2010
Trader Joe's Coastal Syrah 2009
Columbia Crest, Horse Heaven Hills Merlot 2008
Trader Joe's Coastal Chardonnay 2009
Vieux Papes Red
Domaine de l'Aujardiere, Chardonnay 2009
Santa Rita, Cabernet, Medalla Real 2007
Penfold's, Koonunga Hill Shiraz Cabernet 2008
Guild, Red, Lot #02 2008
Dievole, Dievolino Sangiovese 2008
Laforet, Burgogne Chardonnay 2009
Columbia Winery, Merlot 2007
Bonterra, Cabernet 2008
Elk Cove, Pinot Gris 2009
Maquis Lien 2006
Scott Paul, Pinot Noir, Le Paulee 2007
The Occasional Book
Neil Young - Waging Heavy Peace
Mark Bego - Aretha Franklin, the Queen of Soul (2012 ed.)
Jenny Lawson - Let's Pretend This Never Happened
J.D. Salinger - Franny and Zooey
Charles Dickens - A Christmas Carol
Timothy Egan - The Big Burn
Deborah Eisenberg - Transactions in a Foreign Currency
Kurt Vonnegut Jr. - Slaughterhouse Five
Kathryn Lance - Pandora's Genes
Cheryl Strayed - Wild
Fyodor Dostoyevsky - The Brothers Karamazov
Jack London - The House of Pride, and Other Tales of Hawaii
Jack Walker - The Extraordinary Rendition of Vincent Dellamaria
Colum McCann - Let the Great World Spin
Niccolò Machiavelli - The Prince
Harper Lee - To Kill a Mockingbird
Emma McLaughlin & Nicola Kraus - The Nanny Diaries
Brian Selznick - The Invention of Hugo Cabret
Sharon Creech - Walk Two Moons
Keith Richards - Life
F. Sionil Jose - Dusk
Natalie Babbitt - Tuck Everlasting
Justin Halpern - S#*t My Dad Says
Mark Herrmann - The Curmudgeon's Guide to Practicing Law
Barry Glassner - The Gospel of Food
Phil Stanford - The Peyton-Allan Files
Jesse Katz - The Opposite Field
Evelyn Waugh - Brideshead Revisited
J.K. Rowling - Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone
David Sedaris - Holidays on Ice
Donald Miller - A Million Miles in a Thousand Years
Mitch Albom - Have a Little Faith
C.S. Lewis - The Magician's Nephew
F. Scott Fitzgerald - The Great Gatsby
William Shakespeare - A Midsummer Night's Dream
Ivan Doig - Bucking the Sun
Penda Diakité - I Lost My Tooth in Africa
Grace Lin - The Year of the Rat
Oscar Hijuelos - Mr. Ives' Christmas
Madeline L'Engle - A Wrinkle in Time
Steven Hart - The Last Three Miles
David Sedaris - Me Talk Pretty One Day
Karen Armstrong - The Spiral Staircase
Charles Larson - The Portland Murders
Adrian Wojnarowski - The Miracle of St. Anthony
William H. Colby - Long Goodbye
Steven D. Stark - Meet the Beatles
Phil Stanford - Portland Confidential
Rick Moody - Garden State
Jonathan Schwartz - All in Good Time
David Sedaris - Dress Your Family in Corduroy and Denim
Anthony Holden - Big Deal
Robert J. Spitzer - The Spirit of Leadership
James McManus - Positively Fifth Street
Jeff Noon - Vurt
Road Work
Miles run year to date: 21
At this date last year: 52
Total run in 2012: 129
In 2011: 113
In 2010: 125
In 2009: 67
In 2008: 28
In 2007: 113
In 2006: 100
In 2005: 149
In 2004: 204
In 2003: 269
Comments (15)
Jack,
I know they always say to take the 50% now, but so many of these winners end up broke. There are other new factors too such as the possible collapse of the dollar, the banks, Oregon, and the United States.
Still it would worry me greatly if my first official act after winning would be to give half of it away.
I've seen the math and I know the advantages of doing it like this guy if you invest wisely.
But I think I would screw it up as so many people have before me.
I would make do with 400 grand a year for 25 years rather than take the 5 million now. How about the factor of how fast the years go by as you get older?
Notice how this guy's already talking about a 500 thousand dollar house.
After taxes, that 5 million is down to what? 3 plus and now he's going to spend one unit of 500 grand leaving him with 5 left.
But what gets me is the tone when people discuss what they'd do. It's amazing how brilliant most broke people sound when they're talking about how to manage money. They always talk as if they'd be financial wizards - like they couldn't screw it up. I have to wonder - if they're so good with money - why aren't they rich already?
Posted by Bill McDonald | December 20, 2009 1:35 AM
With interest rates as lousy as they are right now, the 25-year payout is a better deal than it used to be.
I've crunched some numbers that I think are right, and they show this pretty conclusively. Let's say you win a "jackpot" of $10.2 million, which is what it was this week. Your combined state and federal tax rate on that is going to be something like 40-45%. The lottery folks may withhold only 33% from the check, but the hit come April 15 is going to be higher than that. Let's say it's 40%.
Here are your two options:
Option 1. They pay you $5.1 million in cash pre-tax, which after tax is $3.06 million. If you put that into an investment and don't touch it for 25 years, here's what will be there at the end of year 25, depending on what after-tax rate of return you get on your investments:
At 3%: $6.41 million
At 5%: $10.36 million
At 6.25%: $13.93 million
At 10%: $33.15 million
Option 2. They pay you $408,000 a year for 25 years, which after taxes is $244,800. If you take those payments and put them into investments, here is what you'll have at the end of year 25 at the same after-tax rates of return:
At 3%: $8.93 million
At 5%: $11.68 million
At 6.25%: $13.91 million
At 10%: $24.08 million
From this, you can see that to make the cash option better, you'd have to make more than 6% a year after tax on your investments. That's not impossible to do, but it's not as easy as it used to be.
By these calculations, you'll do better with the up-front cash payout only if you can make more than 6.2374% a year on it, after tax.
Of course, this ciphering ignores the fact that most lottery winners don't act rationally. "A $300 speeding ticket? No problem." That ain't Phil Knight talking -- that's Qyntel Woods.
Posted by Jack Bog | December 20, 2009 2:13 AM
Thanks for crunching the numbers. My more fringe analysis came down to what would happen if the dollar fails and is replaced by a new currency such as the Amero? If you took the payments, would you still get paid anything or would the accompanying meltdown sort of mean you were out of luck? Crazy as that sounds, the 25-year payment plan is a bet on our future stability that is getting harder to justify.
Could you imagine kicking yourself in a few years, because you didn't take the 50% payment, buy gold and flee to an island in the South Pacific?
I still say the 25-year payments are safer for someone like me.
The trouble with becoming an instant millionaire is that relative poverty is actually a form of self-control.
I've met several people worth 100s of millions including Bob Pamplin and they're always described as eccentric. But I maintain we're all eccentric - most of us just don't have a way to express it.
So one thing this new Mega-bucks winner is going to find out is whether or not he has any interests that only surface now. I mean things he might not even know about.
I read Pamplin has a collection of Chinese art. Things like that.
The person who most closely mirrors what I'd probably do is Paul Allen. If I had billions I would definitely spend serious money buying Jimi Hendrix guitars and Eric Clapton's as Paul Allen has.
I'd love to own one of George Harrison's guitars.
As a mere millionaire, I would buy tens of thousands worth of normal vintage guitars, no doubt about that. I like being around them. The house would look like a music store.
So while I'm not materialistic, if I had the money, that would leap out and cost a fortune.
As far as buying a sports team, I wouldn't do that I don't think. But if I did, I'd definitely pick a few games a year where I played. Get some friends together and take on the Lakers. I could see that. We'd lose of course, but I would love to trash talk Kobe for a couple of hours.
Posted by Bill McDonald | December 20, 2009 3:09 AM
The buy-gold-and-run thing sounds better every day. May I be so lucky as to have to make that decision.
I'd probably take the $3 million up front. Pay off the mortgage, have one round of some serious fun, and take the rest of the $2.5 million and throw it into a bunch of pretty safe investments. Even if they cranked out 3% after tax, that's $75,000 a year forever, and the $3 million's still there for your kids, or whoever.
If you want to really go nuts, hit the Powerball when the jackpot's good. Then you can tack a zero onto the end of all the above numbers. I'd pee my pants with that one.
Posted by Jack Bog | December 20, 2009 3:28 AM
Jack, there's one other thing to factor into the take it all now or take some of it later and that's your age when you win. If you were 65 and your family typically did not make it past 80 it would be better to enjoy what you can now and forget about later when you probably are not going to be able to enjoy it that much anyway.
Posted by LucsAdvo | December 20, 2009 7:53 AM
Here's a newly made bag of money for the tax the rich crowd. I wonder how he's going to vote on the tax measures now.
Posted by Richard/s | December 20, 2009 8:18 AM
No on 66&67, Jay and Donna.
Posted by Mark Ellis | December 20, 2009 8:34 AM
If these winners spend an average of $1000 a day the entire sum will be gone in 3 1/2 years if the net $3.5 million.
The $500k house is a good start on that road. They better get a single wide as back up housing.
Posted by portland native | December 20, 2009 9:40 AM
You've got to love these two contradictory statements:
"We are not going to go too extravagant and just blow the money," King said.
and
"We probably could have got out of the ticket, but we can pay a little $300 ticket."
Great start, folks!
Posted by NW Portlander | December 20, 2009 1:21 PM
A couple of things from an economist:
First when the Megabucks Lottery jackpot is over $9 million, the after tax expected return per dollar wagered is actually greater than a dollar. The game has a positive return.
Second: The world is not imploding. Buying gold is an ill advised thing to do with your money. Reminds me of the housing bubble a few years ago. I tell people this and like back in 2006 they think I am crazy. The long run average cost of mining and producing gold is around $400 an ounce. Commodity prices in the long run gravitate to their long run average cost. There is no shortage of places to mine it and once produced gold is not consumed in the same way many other commodities are.
Posted by Robert | December 20, 2009 4:08 PM
Good on them, I wish them the best.
Posted by John W. | December 20, 2009 6:10 PM
Qyntel Woods?
Nah, this guy fashions himself Tiger Woods. Look at that hat and follow the story.
Posted by Grady Foster | December 20, 2009 8:23 PM
"The world is not imploding" ... no, it's not. The human race is cooking.
"... they're so good with money - why aren't they rich already?"
Didja ever notice that rich people of your acquaintance never buy lottery tickets. Another thing: I've never heard 'successful' people talk about what they saw on TV lately ... for that matter, ones I've been around don't watch TV.
- - -
But explain something to me. Winner Woods is reported to be 34-yrs-old and his oldest child is 20 ? ? ?
Posted by Tenskwatawa | December 20, 2009 10:33 PM
He wanted it [the new $500k house] big enough to have some of his nine and his wife's 13 immediate family members be able to come for visits and “share the joy” with them.
Anyone else see another potential problem here?
Posted by john rettig | December 21, 2009 12:15 AM
In a related story, the supply of tweak has mysteriously dried up in Roseburg.
Posted by James | December 22, 2009 8:22 AM