These rocket surgeons have hit on something huge. If you eliminate drivers' ability to get on the freeway, you will indeed have less traffic.

In fact, I'll bet that if they block off every ramp on 217, as well as both termini at I-5 and US-26, the traffic will be virtually zero!

Problem solved!

It's only temporary.
217 is expected to be widened by 2089.

Don't worry. As everybody knows, the best way to relieve nasal congestion is to increase the size of the nostril.

I mean, if we treated our bodies like we do freeways, we'd ignore warnings about staying healthy, and instead routinely complain that if the doctor would only keep increasing our nostril size and giving us more drugs, life would be better.

Wait for it..... Here it comes..... STREETCARS !!!!

That's actually a very sensible idea. The original design standards for the interstate freeway system called for a separation of at least 1/2 mile between urban (city center) interchanges, 1 mile for suburban interchanges, and 2 miles for rural interchanges. On Highway 217 in rush hour, traffic from the southbound Walker Road on-ramp conflicts with drivers exiting on the Highway 8/10 off-ramp. Drivers entering from the 8/10 southbound on-ramp conflict with drivers exiting at Allen Boulevard. Downtown Portland has similar problems, especially on I-405 around SW 13th, SW 6th, and the US 26 interchange.

One problem that arises when a freeway is built is that everyone by whose land it passes wants an interchange, and as more are built, the merging traffic from the interchanges slows the freeway.

"...everyone by whose land it passes wants an interchange..."

I'm more inclined to believe the number of ramps on 217 is due to the number of major pre-existing thoroughfares crossed. It's somewhat logical to allow for exit and entry at points where people need to get off and get on. The traffic won't disappear, it will just cause greater congestion off the expressway.

I thought WES was supposed to solve this problem?

eco: you're right.. the best way to cure nasal congestion is not to widen the nostril but to build some type of rail project and condos.

Of course your analogy doesn't really work because nasal congestion is not typically caused by narrow nostrils. Traffic congestion, on the other hand, is almost always related to a lack of capacity.

If we "can't build our way out of congestion," then why the big pipe project. Sewer/storm drain congestion causes sewage to spill in the river each year, but adding capacity to the system will only make people go to the bathroom more.

If we "can't build our way out of congestion," then why the big pipe project.

That's an easy one. We're building the "big pipe" project to compensate for the several hundred square miles of impervious surfaces we continue to build. Since we seem bent on covering every possible surface with concrete and skyscrapers, the stormwater needs to be artifically controlled.

Sewer/storm drain congestion causes sewage to spill in the river each year, but adding capacity to the system will only make people go to the bathroom more.

See above. the biggest problem isn't sewage, it's stormwater contamination. The stormwater picks up and moves all the contaminants we love to drop on the ground and carries them to the nearest water body.

You see, we humans spend half our time building, and the other half trying to prevent and undo the massive harm we did while building. This simple fact seems lost on most people I talk to.

"That's an easy one. We're building the "big pipe" project to compensate for the several hundred square miles of impervious surfaces we continue to build. Since we seem bent on covering every possible surface with concrete and skyscrapers, the stormwater needs to be artifically controlled."

When was the last time you built something in the City of Portland? They have an entire department (Bureau of Environmental Services) dedicated to making sure new buildings DON'T dump stormwater into the system. They make you istall all sorts of contraptions for containment, filtration, then slow and calculated release.

I say we reduce the whole thing down to one lane that cars traveling in both directions have to share somehow.

The rest would be bike lanes and streetcars and bioswales and meadows filled with unicorns and rainbows and....

I'm more inclined to believe the number of ramps on 217 is due to the number of major pre-existing thoroughfares crossed. It's somewhat logical to allow for exit and entry at points where people need to get off and get on.
It is logical to do that, but if the highway folks build access points too close together, they create congestion on the freeway without relieving it off the freeway. Consider the endemic jamups on I-5 at Hayden Island northbound (where Denver and MLK enter the freeway just before Hayden Island traffic exits), at the north end of the southbound bridge (where downtown Vancouver traffic and Highway 14 traffic enter just as the freeway chokes down to three lanes), and the mess on I-405 southbound at the US 26 and 13th Avenue on-ramps and the 6th Avenue / Ross Island Bridge off-ramp. By contrast, the inbound portion of Canyon Road between Sylvan and downtown has sometimes handled as much as 2400 cars/lane/hour at fairly high speeds, partly because it's all downhill (no slow trucks) and partly because it has only one on-ramp, barely used, at the zoo.

WES did solve the 217 traffic problem. Now its a traffic Issue.

Ah, yes; I'd forgotten about how WES has helped the problem on Highway 217 by taking 15 cars off the road every morning and, when it's running, every evening.

WES, as it was beingushered along to approval and funding was presented as "designed to reduce congestion on I-5 and 217".

"Designed" I asked at the time?
What design?
There wasn't any designing at all.
So that was made up just like so many other claims.

Anthony: Traffic congestion, on the other hand, is almost always related to a lack of capacity.

Short term, yes. Long term, no. We as humans have proven time and time again that we can't resist the urge to expand and use all of that capacity and then some.

Then we start the process all over again.

We built it. People came. What was once adequate ain't so any more, and hasn't been for nearly twenty years. Short of the mythical Westside bypass, nothing will be adequate. (And building that would just make for the same problem again in a couple decades, only larger.)

That "it will just fill up" crap is a tool to obstruct adding capacity and interchanges that improve traffic mobility.

The flyover at 217 and I-5 was amjor improvement still working. Too bad the ODOT bozos wasted millions on a separate span just for a ped/bike crossing.

Ever notice it stuck in between the flyover and Kruse way overpass?
Check it out.

Another good fix was the interchange and singaling at bridgeport village.

Of course adding 205 and the Glenn Jackson was a huge improvement.

But now we're dominated by the car and road haters who have silly slogans to toss out everytime the idea of road improvments comes up.

We can't build our way out of congestion, but we can drive out as many major employers as possible and cut all those annoying jobs that draw all of this excessive and wasteful commuter traffic. Thankfully Portland's congestion is getting a little better because of the staggering unemployment rate in the DT area. Two or three more years of streetcar and condo construction will hopefully continue this trend by putting adjacent shops and storefronts out of business too and cutting down on all the excessive consumer spending that could overstimulate the economy (poor economy needs a break from all the stress).

Ben: That "it will just fill up" crap is a tool to obstruct adding capacity and interchanges that improve traffic mobility.....Of course adding 205 and the Glenn Jackson was a huge improvement.

You practically make my arguments for me. I-205 was added in 1982 at a time when there wasn't much of any development farther east of this corridor. In the 27 years since it's been opened, this corridor, and especially the regions to the east, have seen some of the highest development intensity in the metropolitan region. And I-205 traffic shows it every single day of the week.

Are you saying that all of this development could have occurred without I-205 opening?

@Issac and PDX,

217 was not originally a freeway but an express road. Most of the current on and off ramps are located at streets that used to intersect 217 and traffic was controlled with traffic lights. About the time Washington Square was built, 217 was improved with over-passes and the resulting on and off ramps.

John, people move to where the jobs are, which means developing areas that were previously undeveloped. With a larger population base more businesses are attracted due to the labor pool. Makes perfect sense to me.

To keep congestion from occuring due to natural growth more roads have to be put in. Unfortunatly Portland, surrounding areas and the state have all decided that cars are bad and made a concious decision to not increase road capacity. Maybe not spending the money on new roads was a good financial decision though since they seem intent on driving out all the jobs from this area.

To keep congestion from occuring due to natural growth more roads have to be put in.

And so it starts. Refer to my previous post at 8:28 pm to see how this philosophy plays out.

And is the impact of "natural" growth on a metropolitan region any different than any other classification you wish to divide growth into?

Why isn't there more development between Salem and Portland? It seems like the West side is getting jammed full of development but then if you look past Wilsonville in places like Woodburn, Brooks, Gervais, Donald, Aurora they are all still little bergs with nothing happening. Wouldn't it be better to spread a little bit south?

Q: Hey, what happens when you get too much traffic?

A: Easy--you build more freeways.

Q: Oh, that *is* easy! Wait--but the freeways got built, and now they're overfull, so...what do we do now?

A: Again, easy. Just expand the freeways to relieve congestion.

Q: Oh! I see. But what if...

A: ...Always the same. expand to accommodate growth. Otherwise, you'll get congestion and overcrowding.

Q: You mean like New York City, and LA freeways?

A: Exactly!

Q: But they kept building to accommodate congestion, and now highway traffic and street traffic is insane! And in NYC, they've run out of room, the electrical grid is pushed to the limit, and they're approaching 24-hour gridlock on all major thoroughfares, even with over 50% transit ridership!

A: Why do you hate America?

@travis,

I remember those days - there were lights at Canyon, Beaverton-Hillsdale, Allen, Denney, Hall, Scholls Ferry, and Greenburg. I don't remember whether 99W was an interchange from the start, and my recollection is that the 72nd Avenue interchange was added later on, but that it didn't have a light. 217 functioned much like 224.

On the bigger density/expansion question, increasing density increases demand for roads. The planners' hope is that the demand for roads increases more slowly if we increase density (building up instead of out). Alas, the City's view seems to be that increasing density reduces demand for roads. It may reduce demand for roads per capita, but it increases the overall demand for roads.

Why isn't there more development between Salem and Portland?

It's called Urban Growth Boundaries. Which as you note will work, at least to a point.

I don't really see how temporary closures will really do the trick. I do think there are a few ramps that are superfluous--Denney Road doesn't need an interchange, and I think the ramp from 217 SB onto Scholls Ferry could go away, as it just jams things up on Scholls Ferry. But 217's a mess all-day. How do we define "rush hour"? It seems like it'd be a good way to confuse people.

The ultimate solution, I think, is going to be to have some "braided ramps" (like what they did with the 26 WB ramp to Cedar Hills, with the tunnel) to eliminate the weaving created by having so many interchanges close together. ODOT actually has some preliminary plans to "braid" the Canyon/Beaverton-Hillsdale and Allen Blvd ramps.

I think the $1 billion estimate is ridiculous, though. The Idaho Transportation Department (IDT) is adding 2 lanes to 250 miles of US-95 for only $1.2 billion.

If we just banned cars outright, freeway congestion would be a thing of the past.

Or follow the San Diego County example and realize that you can actually build sufficient freeway capacity to keep an expanding population on the move without a significant investment in mass transit.

I'm against highways and freeways, because they're a government welfare program, built and maintained by government, and require me to pay more taxes to support them so everybody else can drive on them.

Who in the world would support such a Socialist program?

I'm calling for all people against Socialism to stop supporting highway construction and improvement. We need to take America back from the Socialists and Communists.

This is a great way to reduce congestion. The entire point of freeways is to increase mobility of a typical stretch of road by making it limited access.

217 is not limited access by any means. I think even if they do expand 217 they should also take away some on/off ramps still (217 is not entirely neglected, they had a completely redone on/off ramp @ I-5 in the early 2000s and are also working on a lane expansion near highway 26 interchange).

More On/off ramps = people braking and people braking means congestion especially during peak hours. If every car traveled at the same speed, congestion theoretically could be largely eliminated.

Individual behaviors on the road...going too fast or too slow actually causes quite a good deal of chain-reaction congestion.

Here's a great video on this issue in a closed loop:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Suugn-p5C1M

"Or follow the San Diego County example and realize that you can actually build sufficient freeway capacity to keep an expanding population on the move without a significant investment in mass transit."

San Diego urban area, while a bit more populated than Portland but actually less dense than Portland, has a longer travel-time index, more annual delay hours (52 vs. 37), and a longer census commute time to work.

"Of course your analogy doesn't really work because nasal congestion is not typically caused by narrow nostrils. Traffic congestion, on the other hand, is almost always related to a lack of capacity."

I believe the better analogy is: "trying to cure traffic congestion by adding more capacity is like trying cure obesity by loosening your belt"

And that analogy is a good one I feel. 90% of trips in the US are by automobile.

Induced traffic and treating traffic congestion only by lane expansions are two concepts that get severely distorted. Both are true, but not always in every scenario.

I do not see any induced traffic that would occur on 217 expansion mainly because the surrounding area is built up already. The demand is there. Now, if we're talking about a new highway that would stimulate urban fringe growth, then yes, induced congestion is a very true concept and reality for much of America. Though, we have a UGB, so who knows about the future of fringe growth -- even though Wash. Co. alone is wanting 50 sq. miles of new land.

Ultimately one has to assess the built environment in suburbia as to causes of congestion on much of 217. Nobody can walk or take an effective transit system because they are difficult, inconvenient, and spread out (if not dangerous to get to).

So, people take their cars for every trip, which ultimately creates congestion.

I think if one is an adamant believer about either concept:

a) you should be the first one in line to have your home bulldozed for lane expansions (lane expansion only).

b) never purchase goods or services that require an automobile/truck/van, etc. (induced demand only).

Dayam... you all make it far more difficult than it has to be. There was no traffic problem in 1977. But there were also a lot less people (and less lanes on Hwy 26 and 217 was just getting started). Reduce people to reduce traffic. Now push your EASY buttons.