I've long advocated that we not wait for the Californians to come after our water; we should sell it and send it to them in small, recyclable bottles (with a deposit, of course).

Bummer. Better get yourselves copies of Robert Glennon's Water Follies: Groundwater Pumping and the Fate of America’s Fresh Waters (2002), and read it pronto.

Bits in there about Nestle's (and other water-raiders') ruthless rapaciousness and local communities' successful (and unsuccessful) efforts to preserve their precious irreplaceable clean drinking water from being looted, among other pearls of wisdom.

Then follow up with his new book, Unquenchable: America's Water Crisis and What To Do About It (2009).

See http://rglennon.com/

Don't expect Oregon's DEQ/EQC/DSL to stand up to the water raiders' "economic development," ick cetera , pressures, without greater pressure from true Oregonians.

If LA takes the water, it will go to keep their lawns green and bright lights burning.

Nobody got to Third Base like the Georgia Peach!

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=cobbty01

:)

Its okay, Nestlé is a European company.

Just add Nestlé bottled water to Nestlé infant formula. Dilute as your economic circumstances require. Your baby may starve, but at least you will have employed modern corporate products.

Regarding the bottles themselves, they most likely contain BPA. Go here for a sample of current research:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/hsn/20090610/hl_hsn/studiesreportmoreharmfuleffectsfrombpa

Curious, isn't it, that there is apparent concern by Nestlé over whether well water is as beneficial to hatchery salmon as spring water while there is no apparent concern over whether plastic-bottled water is as healthy for humans as more traditional containers?

they're only talking about taking 300 gallons per minute = 0.7 cubic feet per second

there's 500,000 cubic feet per second of the columbia flowing past cascade locks in the summer

it's the proverbial drop in the bucket

imho, it looks like a good deal for cascade locks

anon, reread what Mr Learn has reported:

"Nestle...would run a pipe to ODFW's Oxbow Hatchery to capture just over 300 gallons per minute of the spring water that pops out at three points just above the hatchery. At its lowest point, in late summer, the spring runs about 675 gallons a minute, ODFW says."

Nestlé is intending to take nearly half the summer low-flow from the spring currently relied upon by the hatchery. No one is foolish enough to quaff from the Columbia; but go ahead, be our guest.

Shades of Frank Ivancie.

Maybe they could just make the bottles out of melamine and save the Chinese middleman's commission.

"Nestle's MO is to target small, struggling communities that have lost their resource base and make them a deal it appears they can't refuse," said Richard McIntyre, a consultant to Nestle opponents in McCloud and Chaffee County, Colorado. "They don't tell you that most of the jobs are $10 an hour, or that you're going to have trucks running through your community 24/7."

it's true. and speaking of "third base"--does it sound familiar?

the fundamental problem is what McIntyre described. smaller towns and communities sell themselves (and the enviroment) like two-dollar whores, in exchange for some "jobs" that either don't materialize, or turn out to be jobs that won't even buy you a McDonald's combo meal.

and sometimes, even big cities do the same thing. it's never, ever, ever, ever a good deal for anyone or anything--except a handful of people (or one) in a different city or country who collects profits while extracting resources.

resource extraction--all the cool kids are doing it. c'mon Cascade Locks, sell that land and those water rights cheap! it won't matter, there's lots of water!

except that water is finite, the planet isn't making any more, and less than 2% of it is drinkable.

and speaking of "plentiful water", I wonder if most Portlanders know that despite Bull Run and three feet of yearly rain, we experience repeated water shortages? that we've repeatedly pumped water from aquifers at the north end of the city to meet demand?

but wait--something's weird here. I thought there was enough water for everything! I thought it was infinite!

dang.

ecoh, it is now legal in OR to re-use your sink and tub water to keep your roses alive in this City of Roses where the cost of water and sewage is already (w/o the 18% hike) so exorbitant that the thorny fleurs have become a conspicuous luxury and Mr Leonard, the commissioner whose portfolio includes the Water Dept, is trying to convince us that neon blooms are aesthetically satisfying:
http://www.oregonlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2009/06/reuse_of_bath_kitchen_water_on.html

Ecohuman, you beg the extremely un-Politically Correct question most people absolutely refuse to talk about.

How do you feel about wise Latina (and to a much lesser extent wise Black and White) women on the lower rungs of the socio-economic ladder, in extremely over-populated areas of the world such as Southern California, who feel that it is perfectly acceptable to routinely create 4,5, even 7 children ?

Does this massive population explosion, aided and abetted by the criminals in that racketeering organization known as the Catholic Church, fall under the rubric of "over-consumption of resources" in your worldview ?

Nestle has 26 spring-fed bottling plants in the United States and Canada, but none in the Northwest, Palais said, forcing it to ship bottles from Northern California or British Columbia to meet Northwest demand.

Hey Portland: Cut back on the demand!

"First San Francisco banned it. Then Chicago started taxing it. Now, the city of Seattle is taking action against bottled water; last week, Mayor Greg Nickels signed an executive order to stop the city from buying bottled water. That means no more bottled water at city facilities and events, which may sound like a small step, but it'll make a big difference; last year, the city spent $58,000 on the stuff (and that's not including the true cost and carbon footprint of bottled water)."

From City of Seattle Gives Bottled Water the Boot by Collin Dunn, Corvallis, OR, USA on 03.19.08
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/03/city-of-seattle-bottled-water-ban.php

Guess I am in the minority. What's wrong with the jobs this brings? Guys we have the 2nd highest unemployment rate in the country. We need this. Bring the industry. Please don't run these guys out of town.

They don't tell you that most of the jobs are $10 an hour

Jeez, thats it? Selfish bastards.

Oh well, there is always begging for change at freeway offramps.

If I could banish two things from existence they would be jet skis and bottled water. And if I could only banish one thing, it would be bottled water. Well, maybe I'd flip a coin.

The problem with $10/hour jobs is that the employers run through the towns like the slave traders in Roots, snatching people from $30/hour family wage jobs and chaining them to the $10/hour assembly line.

Go to a WalMart and just look at the sheer misery in their employees' faces. You'll tear up like Iron Eyes Cody.

It is way past time to consider all of our precious natural resources, including people!
Water is the new oil. Bottled water is the worst use of all resources. As George Carlin used to say, and I am paraphrasing here; "...why a bottle of water? Have a drink before you leave home."
BTW; rain water catchment works very well and you can use solar power to pump, filter, heat, and sanitize the water for drinking too.
As for Nestle, I would not trust them any farther thatn I can throw Sam Adams out of office!

Friends in western Michigan report tremendous problems with the Nestle "Ice Mountain" water plant there, which comes from the same old wells.

"anon, reread what Mr Learn has reported:

"Nestle...would run a pipe to ODFW's Oxbow Hatchery to capture just over 300 gallons per minute of the spring water that pops out at three points just above the hatchery. At its lowest point, in late summer, the spring runs about 675 gallons a minute, ODFW says."

Nestlé is intending to take nearly half the summer low-flow from the spring currently relied upon by the hatchery. No one is foolish enough to quaff from the Columbia; but go ahead, be our guest."

the oxbow hatchery (an odfw-operated hatchery, not a natural hatchery area, btw) has superior water rights, correct?

so nothing nestle could do, and nothing cascade locks could bargain away, could possibly prevent the oxbow hatchery from having the water it needs to operate, right?

in other words, the hatchery gets the water it needs first, before nestle, and nothing about this deal will change that

so this talk about the impact on the hatchery is a red herring

he he he

or am i missing something?

http://www.bottlemania.net/

ABOUT Bottlemania

In the follow-up to Garbage Land, her influential investigation into our modern trash crisis, Elizabeth Royte ventures to Fryeburg, Maine, to look deep into the source—of Poland Spring water. In this tiny town, and in others like it across the country, she finds the people, machines, economies, and cultural trends that have made bottled water a $60-billion-a-year phenomenon even as it threatens local control of a natural resource and litters the landscape with plastic waste.

Moving beyond the environmental consequences of making, filling, transporting and landfilling those billions of bottles, Royte examines the state of tap water today (you may be surprised), and the social impact of water-hungry multinationals sinking ever more pumps into tiny rural towns. Ultimately, Bottlemania makes a case for protecting public water supplies, for improving our water infrastructure and—in a world of increasing drought and pollution—better allocating the precious drinkable water that remains.

What's next? Mt. Hood Bottled Air? People are so stupid.

Does this massive population explosion, aided and abetted by the criminals in that racketeering organization known as the Catholic Church, fall under the rubric of "over-consumption of resources" in your worldview ?

I'm not sure how water "begs the question" of population, but--yes, I definitely do. population growth is the elephant in the room. it's actually a common discussion among a wide range of environmentally-minded groups.

http://www.ecohuman.com/a-fairy-tale-134

cabbie, you and I actually agree on a lot of things. don't let the "eco" part of "ecohuman" fool you. my fundamental interest? changing our priorities so that human and ecological health are placed first, always.

bottled water is not necessary for human or ecological health, and in fact often has the opposite effect on ecology.

sprawling casinos are not necessary for human or ecological health, and in fact often have the opposite effect.

"jobs" is the red herring, dangled in front of communities desperate for a quick fix. large corporations use it the world over, especially in Third World countries. it's why you can get those trainers for $25 that were made in SE Asia.

and that's the real problem. small-town governments with short-term myopia. taking the long view takes exceptional patience, wisdom, and an ability to stick to priorities.

trading away one's power and choices and local ecology for a few dozen jobs--which are not guaranteed, anyway--is the heroin addict approach. get a fix, get high, look for another, lament the old days when drugs were cheap. cities and towns in America operate this way. it's how we've come to see government--a place to get instant gratification on the ultimate "buy now, pay later" plan.

I'm not sure how water "begs the question" of population

Well, it was in the larger context of the disaster-on-wheels called California using up PNW resources such as the water supply.

Good to hear. A lot of so-called Environmentalists won't touch this one with a ten foot pole. I've long advocated "Zero Population Growth," but the rub is that the people practicing it are greatly outnumbered by the people who have never once considered it. Moreover, because the people who practice ZPG tend to be affluent and Caucasian or Asian, and the people breeding like rabbits tend to be Latinos, African-Americans, and poor Whites, you run into a brick wall of political correctness.

Give it enough time...well actually not much time at all...and these silly sensitivity concerns will fall to the wayside as we adopt emergency population control policies straight out of Communist China.

Ever seen those pictures of those billboards in China that say "YOU HAD BETTER HAVE ONLY ONE CHILD" ?

On the one hand, I abhor authoritarian Collectivist police states and barbarities such as forced sterilization, but on the other, I wonder how crowded things will have to get before staunch Libertarians such as myself finally admit that such measures might become necessary to save our very species from extinction...

I do not know why you people swallow hook, line, and sinker what some opponent tells you, but if you bother to look at federal data derived from W2 forms, the average person in the industry makes $19.16 an hour. You you want the average fork lift operator in the Portland labor market, you are paying $15+ an hour.

Every time Cascade Locks tries to do something to revitalize its economy, people from the outside come down on them like they are a bunch of stupid rubes that do not know what's good for them. Until I see some environmental group start a viable business there and pay $19 an hour, I cannot have much respect for them.

people from the outside

water system's much bigger than Cascade Locks, my friend. the decisions the town makes will affect a larger water supply, affect the *global* environment in several ways (yes, more than just "taking water"), and trade away a profound amount of future to corporations for a handful of promises.

if you want to mortgage everything like that and hook yourself by the neck to any large corporation that offers you the hook--then sign up. but along the way, step back a bit and consider what that means not just for the world around Cascade Locks, but every individual that makes their life and livelihood utterly dependent on a multinational corporation.

because when you do that, you're theirs. the town too. and *next* time they come back to the city council--and they will, if they get the plant--they'll be wanting a lot more than some water.

Nestle's plant wouldn't directly affect anyone's water supply. The water they plan to bottle would otherwise flow into the Columbia River, because Oxbow Hatchery (a fish farm) gets first dibs on the water it needs, and Nestle cannot take any of Oxbow Hatchery's water rights, and Oxbow Hatchery has more water rights than it uses. Oxbow Hatchery will take what it needs, and Nestle can bottle up to 300 gpm of what's left after that. Even then, there will be water from those streams flowing into the Columbia River.

Nestle's plant wouldn't directly affect anyone's water supply. The water they plan to bottle would otherwise flow into the Columbia River, because Oxbow Hatchery (a fish farm) gets first dibs on the water it needs, and Nestle cannot take any of Oxbow Hatchery's water rights, and Oxbow Hatchery has more water rights than it uses. Oxbow Hatchery will take what it needs, and Nestle can bottle up to 300 gpm of what's left after that. Even then, there will be water from those streams flowing into the Columbia River.

nope. it's not even close to that simple, James. again, it's about more than "taking water" that would "otherwise flow somewhere". I won't repost what's already been said, so I'd recommend that you scan the previous comments, and read more details--for example, from places like Food & Water Watch:

http://www.foodandwaterwatch.org/water/bottled

if none of that makes sense, I'm not sure what to tell you. but let me summarize the whole thing in a five-second sound bite for you:

water is the oil of the 21st century.

here's more:

http://www.sierraclub.org/committees/cac/water/bottled_water/

and don't believe that water's the oil of the 21st century? don't take my word for it:

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_25/b4089040017753.htm

wake up, folks. look around, Cascade Locks. you're part of a much bigger story.

Bottled water isn't that bad. What about the health benefits of drinking water instead of soda? Or the industry benfits? Soda has all the same problems of water use (working conditions, plastic bottles, distribution, etc.), plus all the problems of growing corn to sweeten it, plus all the health consequences to people who drink it. Why not battle the soda industry, and by fighting people's basic freedom to select unhealthy foods, and by fighting business expansion during a recession, marginalize the other worthy arguments you have?

A bottling plant sure put Enumclaw on the map.

Lyle Lanley: Well, sir, there's nothing on earth
Like a genuine,
Bona fide,
Electrified,
Six-car
Monorail!
What'd I say?
Ned Flanders: Monorail!
Lyle Lanley: What's it called?
Patty+Selma: Monorail!
Lyle Lanley: That's right! Monorail!
[crowd chants `Monorail' softly and rhythmically]
Miss Hoover: I hear those things are awfully loud...
Lyle Lanley: It glides as softly as a cloud.
Apu: Is there a chance the track could bend?
Lyle Lanley: Not on your life, my Hindu friend.
Barney: What about us brain-dead slobs?
Lyle Lanley: You'll be given cushy jobs.
Abe: Were you sent here by the devil?
Lyle Lanley: No, good sir, I'm on the level.
Wiggum: The ring came off my pudding can.
Lyle Lanley: Take my pen knife, my good man.
I swear it's Springfield's only choice...
Throw up your hands and raise your voice!
All: Monorail!
Lyle Lanley: What's it called?
All: Monorail!
Lyle Lanley: Once again...
All: Monorail!
Marge: But Main Street's still all cracked and broken...
Bart: Sorry, Mom, the mob has spoken!
All: Monorail!
Monorail!
Monorail!
[big finish]
Monorail!
Homer: Mono... D'oh!

Bottled water isn't that bad. What about the health benefits of drinking water instead of soda? Or the industry benfits?

didn't read the links, did you?

There is nothing in the links that you couldn't say about any other plastic-bottled beverage. I'm not saying bottled water is a great thing, but it's better than soda, and in Cascade Locks, it won't hurt the water or fish, and would help the economy. I don't disagree that the water is the new oil, at least in some places, but 300 gpm isn't anything in the Gorge.

I'm not saying bottled water is a great thing

then

Bottled water isn't that bad. What about the health benefits of drinking water?

and what the heck does water's comparative health benefit have to do with any of this issue, really?

but 300 gpm isn't anything in the Gorge.

forest for the trees, man. forest for the trees.

Great job everyone preaching to the no-nothings living in Cascade Locks. Of course all of us here in Portland know what's good for the rest of the state. Pretty much 'keep it green and natural' so that we have a place to go to get away from our high-stress jobs saving the world. And of course whatever a corporation does is pretty much automaticly BAD. You know, corporations have never done anything good. Love those links - half documented poppycock that in many cases does not even correlate to what is proposed in Cascade Locks. Water the next oil? Yea, in the Texas panhandle! Telling that to people in the gorge is like telling Saudia Arabia to conserve gasoline.

My guess is that this project will be greenlighted by people more informed and far more qualified than those posting here.

Then perhaps some of the I-know-better-than-thou crowd can get to work on the much more serious problems we have right here in Portland.

Pretty much 'keep it green and natural' so that we have a place to go to get away from our high-stress jobs saving the world.

the world's much more easily understandable when you paint it black and white, isn't it? gets rid of all that pesky "thinking" and "big picture" nonsense.

And of course whatever a corporation does is pretty much automaticly BAD. You know, corporations have never done anything good.

not familiar with the difference between "milti-billion dollar multinational corporation with a team of lobbyists" and "shoe store", are you?

Love those links - half documented poppycock that in many cases does not even correlate to what is proposed in Cascade Locks.

you mean, the links explaining what's happening around the world with multinational corporations looking to bottle local water and ship it around the world, leaving a trail of false promises and mountains of plastic? you're absolutely right. sounds nothing like "Nestle coming to Cascade Locks and running a hundred daily truckloads of plastic".

Of course all of us here in Portland know what's good for the rest of the state.

that would include you, then, apparently.

Then perhaps some of the I-know-better-than-thou crowd can get to work on the much more serious problems we have right here in Portland.

that would also include you, apparently.

Perhaps an audiovisual aid might reinforce some of the things that have been said by the critics of this latest Nestlé gambit: "Flow: For Love of Water"(2008), available from Netflix.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1149583/

"and what the heck does water's comparative health benefit have to do with any of this issue, really?"

I raised that point for two reasons:

First, some of your links state that it's unhealthy to drink from plastic bottles, so allowing companies like Nestle to build bottled water plants hurts people's health. But, if you're going to be talking about health, the phenomenon of people choosing bottled water over soda is something good that arguably should be encouraged. People don't gain weight, get heart disease, or get diabetes from drinking bottled water, like they do drinking soda.

Second, think of the environmental consequences of poor health, everything from the impact of drug manufacturing to people driving more because they're heavier from drinking soda all their lives.

That's why I brought it up.

"forest for the trees, man. forest for the trees"

There are many benefical impacts in the forest of issues surrounding this project that you have not acknowledged.

For example, have you considered the possibility that Nestle's interest in Cascade Locks may be a response to problems Nestle encountered in locations where water really is a scarce resource? That this is a sign that the industry is changing to mitigate their sins elsewhere?

This proposal is to bottle 300 gallons per minute of water that, if not bottled, would flow into the Columbia River within minutes after it leaves the spring. This about one one-millionth of the flow that would be taken away, after Oxbow Hatchery gets all the water it needs. What about the hundreds of agricultural and other water users who have more impact than that? Like breweries in Portland? Should they be shut down, too?

Also, what about the health benefits of drinking water, and the economic benefits to Cascade Locks? All those residents who wouldn't have to drive to Portland or Hood River for their $10/hour jobs?

What about the possibility that a bottled water plant in Cascade Locks could solve the short-term tax and development needs of the community, and lead to that town not wanting or needing a casino, and all the environmental problems that would come with a casino? The driving, construction, paving, habitat reduction, even water use that would exceed what Nestle wants to use? At the very least, this development would improve the negotiating position of the city, because they would not be so desperate for development.

Finally, do you think it helps the cause to rail against all industry that harms the environment, regardless of the severity of its impacts? While you're throwing idioms around, have you considered that you may be crying wolf on this, and diluting your arguments against more serious environmental problems?

A forest indeed.

For example, have you considered the possibility that Nestle's interest in Cascade Locks may be a response to problems Nestle encountered in locations where water really is a scarce resource?

I don't know how to make it clearer: water is a scare resource *everywhere*. And the water system is all connected.

All those residents who wouldn't have to drive to Portland or Hood River for their $10/hour jobs?

oh, you're assuming that the handful of jobs created will all go to local residents? really? because that's never the case (and it's documented).

which begs the question: how many "local" jobs make it worth it to you? 3? 6? 11?

What about the possibility that a bottled water plant in Cascade Locks could solve the short-term tax and development needs of the community

thanks for pointing that out. asking a multinational to solve *short term needs* by creating *long term agreements* is part of the problem, James.

At the very least, this development would improve the negotiating position of the city, because they would not be so desperate for development.

Consider the implications of a small town being "desperate for development" and entirely dependent on it just to survive.

and lead to that town not wanting or needing a casino, and all the environmental problems that would come with a casino?

you might want to look into who has decision-making authority for a new casino. hint: not just Cascade Locks.

Finally, do you think it helps the cause to rail against all industry that harms the environment, regardless of the severity of its impacts?

Do you think it helps the cause to support all industry that harms the enviroment, regardless of its impacts?