Portland police can kill anyone for any reason. They just have to lie and their fellow officers line up behind the lie.

It is a culture of lies and deceit. Just like Sam Adams and Vera and Neil.

"outside review"
Wow, I bet that was objective!

I can't wait to hear Scott Westerman's justification for this. That d**k.

are own abu ghraib.

the pdx police are violent sadistic wackjobs.

"our own"

Maybe we need to remind the officers of the PPB that ammunition doesn't go bad after a couple weeks?

Target practice.

Of course they didn't mention the fact that Grigsby shot two officers before they shot him. Then when they gave him commands to get away from his gun so the could get him help he flipped them off.

I certainly know nothing about the facts of this particular case other than what Jack reported. Maybe the prior commenters know facts I don't. Maybe policy needs a review. But for what it's worth, and just to keep things a bit in perspective ("Abu Garab" and "sadistic" seem over the top to me), the decedent could have done any one of three things to avoid the unfortunate end: 1) not steal the truck in the first place; 2) not crash it in what I am assuming was a chase, and 3) not run from police who were trying to make a valid arrest.

Come on, it is not like they go around and tase or shoot innocent people. The folks the Portland Police are involved with are the lowest of lowlife scum criminals. You want Queensberry rules. Get real. Be happy the scum is off the streets. You hypocrites degrade and denounce these hard working officers and then the next time your kid’s bike is stolen you are so happy to see them when they come to take the report.

John,

While you write like you're in law enforcement, that can't be true because the PPB hasn't responded to a stolen bike complaint in over 20 years.

They also don't respond to home burglaries or car thefts.

If you come home and find your front door smashed in and your laptop and jewerly gone, the only response from the person who answers the phone at PPB is to ask where they should mail your forms to.

Yeah, they have to deal with lowlifes, but that's the job description.

John Benton: ...it is not like they go around and tase or shoot innocent people

You just haven't been paying attention.

T,

Are you being serious? The only time reports are taken over the phone is when the victim agrees to do it that way. They can request an officer come take the report at any time, and one will show up. If your house gets broken into, a lot of times not only will you get an officer to take the report, but you'll get a criminalist who will come out and take pictures and dust for finger prints. Nice try, but you are mistaken.

The report identified several problems in the Dec. 2, 2004, fatal shooting of William T. Grigsby, 24, who was shot by bullets 13 times, hit 22 times with beanbags and Tasered four or five times, after crashing a stolen pickup in Southeast Portland and then running from police.

Why don't they mention that he shot two cops? I don't think the stolen and crashed truck is the highlight of the story. Could it be that the media loves to portray cops as villans? And that the public, lacking any other source of info, and raised with a general dislike for any authority, laps it up? Whatever, never open your mind folks.

Good police are worth their weight in gold. As are good priests and good mayors.

"The bureau should also strongly advise officers against using more than three standard Taser cycles against anyone, if the third cycle doesn't make contact with the person or is ineffective".

There's an idea. So if the officer fails in making contact with the taser his next option is what? Hands on, putting the officer at more risk? Deadly force, definitely putting the offender at more risk?

Seems like a lot of downside recommending restrictions that are to be followed in every situation. Why not just take each incident on it's own merit, make sure the law was followed, then determine if the officer's actions were appropriate given the circumstances?

and...... Grigsbys death is somehow a loss to this community ??? I don't think so... PPB can do whatever they see fit to apprehend and get those dirtbags off the street.

When my house was broken into and robbed last year in nopo, an officer came over and took the report and then another officer followed up a few days later to answer some additional questions [i]in person.[/i] She was friendly and professional.
So T, you're wrong.
There are many good, competent cops and some bad cops in Portland, as in all professions. You can't paint with such a broad brush as most here.
That said, when bad cops do bad things, it has to be dealt with appropriately, according to the law, contracts, written procedures and city ordinances.
If you don't like any of the above, work for change, file complaints, testify at city council meetings, talk to the decision-makers, or run for office--anything. Whining about abu ghraib and sadistic wackjobs accomplishes less than nothing.
Finally, gotta love all the armchair QBs judging the grigsby case from the comfort of their living rooms. When you start shooting at police, c'mon, all bets are off.

Knowing that the dead man shot two officers is definitely relevant to a full understanding of the story (and it certainly takes a bit of the wind out of the sails of outrage over the death).

However, the police should not be excused for failing to render aid to the man once he has been subdued by gunshots, Taser rounds, beanbags and other weapons from their vast arsenal.

Police officers are not (or should not be) judge, jury and executioner. And the Constitution prohibits (or used to prohibit) the taking of life without due process. Due process is not achieved by letting a man die in the street when medical care would save his life.

And, yes, despite the venom and hate in some of the comments here, due process applies even to the man who just got through stealing a car, leading police on a high-speed chase and shooting at (and hitting) some of your colleagues.

From the Portland Trib's report on the incident:

The incident began after Grigsby crashed a stolen pickup in Southeast Portland, ran from police, and shot and wounded a pursing officer. He bled to death before medics were allowed to approach him. Although an ambulance was on standby, it was not allowed to move in because he was still moving and would not obey police orders to get his hands away from his gun.

See, facts matter!!

"Although an ambulance was on standby, it was not allowed to move in because he was still moving and would not obey police orders to get his hands away from his gun."

This probably should more accurately read "because, police allege, he was still moving...".

I doubt the guy was refusing to get his hands away from the gun as much as he was unable to comply with commands because he was nearing death.

T,
I don't know about this case, but when my home was burglarized in '06 an officer came to my home, walked through all the rooms with me as I noted what was missing and checked the basement and attic to make sure no one was hiding in the house.

None

Were you at the scene or are you just pulling these assumptions out of you a**

mp97303:

No I was not at the scene, obviously. But neither was the reporter that wrote the Tribune article.

The only people who say the medics were kept away because the dead man was still a threat are the police officers who were there. So why does the Tribune accept the explanation and report it as if it is completely factual and without a hint of any doubt?

Maybe because they have no reason to doubt it.

Whatever. Cops are perfect and never lie or shade the truth. They should be allowed to kill anyone they want with no fear of recrimination. Anyone that thinks otherwise should move to Russia if they hate freedom so much.

None
Are we talkin' about that Freedom to do any Freekin' thing I want to - and I'm not responsible - cause, ah .. ah oh hell, The Devil made me do it - freedom?

None...... must be a Mayor Creepy supporter also.....

None

Great retort.

Sorry, I am too busy packing for Russia to post any further comments on this thread.

"22 ballistic bean bag rounds"

Effect on target: Incapacitation caused by loss of breath, psychological effect, and/or pain and extreme discomfort.

"was Tasered repeatedly by two different sets of officers at different times."

Tasers a form of torture, says UN
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,22814674-5001028,00.html?from=public_rss

At abu ghraib at least the victims did not die.

Just out of curiosity, if they were all concerned that he was within reach of his weapon, which is reputedly why they kept the medicos at bay, how in the hell did they get close enough to taze him...twice?

Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.

Isaac Asimov (1920 - 1992)

"Come on, it is not like they go around and tase or shoot innocent people. The folks the Portland Police are involved with are the lowest of lowlife scum criminals."

The guy riding a bike who was collared off it by a police officer who failed to identify themselves, then tased him, might disagree with you. (So would a jury, which acquitted him of any charges that might have required a tasing).

For once I'm with Jack on this. PPB has a serious brutality problem.

Just out of curiosity, if they were all concerned that he was within reach of his weapon, which is reputedly why they kept the medicos at bay, how in the hell did they get close enough to taze him...twice?

Tasers have a range of 35 feet. One would assume that they could have achieved that close a range while being protected by lethal cover.

I have not heard of PPB using Taser's XREP shotgun deployed wireless taser.

Taser's XREP shotgun deployed wireless taser

That one has a range that extends into the afterlife, ensuring the compliance of scum that try to escape by dying! Think you're home free, lifeless corpse? Think again, dirtbag!

There are 1100 or 1200 officers at the PPB, right?

How intellectually honest is it, based on a handful of serious but isolated incidents, to say: "the pdx police are violent sadistic wackjobs"?

Doesn't a thinking person, in the real world behond Isaac Asimov quotes, have to expect that based on simple probability there will be a minority of poor-performing or malicious officers among the 1200? Additionally, won't some decent, well-trained officers make mistakes?

It serves no one to take out frustrations with the review/investigation process on the entirety of the Portland Police Bureau.

If you have big ideas of how the PPB should be reformed, take it up with the PPB or Commissioner Saltzman instead of taking anonymous pot shots at cops as a whole. It would be a more effective use of your time and might actually start the process of making a positive change.

"If you have big ideas of how the PPB should be reformed"

Why would I want to "reform" an agency whose main role is to repress and brutalize the socio-economically disadvantaged.

"well-trained officers make mistakes"

I believe the officers were well "trained" and that their actions were not "mistakes".

"Why would I want to "reform" an agency whose main role is to repress and brutalize the socio-economically disadvantaged. [sic]"

Is that just the Portland police, or all police departments?

If it's just the Portland police, why would you choose to live in a community that sanctions what you believe is truly tyrannical behavior?

If you think all police are tyrannical, then what is the alternative?

Why would I want to "reform" an agency whose main role is to repress and brutalize the socio-economically disadvantaged.

Because as we know, there are NO guilty people in prison. Why don't you just say, we all know what you are thinking....you hate cops.

"Because as we know, there are NO guilty people in prison."

There are guilty people in prison but there are few guilty rich white folk in prison.

"you hate cops."

I have no problem with police who are subservient to the citizenry they are supposed to serve. Inept political control has created a closed culture that fosters an "us vs them" dynamic and allows brutality to flourish. Since 9/11 fear mongering has also led to increased militarization and a movement away from community-based enforcement. IMO, the PPB needs a "reboot" not more don't look behind the curtain reform.

"why would you choose to live in a community that sanctions what you believe is truly tyrannical behavior?"

The classic why don't you move to x if you don't like y strawman. And "tyrannical" is your word not mine.

"Is that just the Portland police, or all police departments?"

No and no.

"The classic why don't you move to x if you don't like y strawman. And "tyrannical" is your word not mine."

Squeezed - I hate the particular strawman that you reference, and that wasn't my point at all. Tyrannical is my word, but your description of the PPB fits within the definition of tyrannical.

My question was perhaps an unsuccessful attempt to get at the question of why you believe it's not worth trying to fix an agency/system that you apparently believe is horribly unjust (per your question below).

"Why would I want to "reform" an agency whose main role is to repress and brutalize the socio-economically disadvantaged."