A Tri-Met driver I met told me he makes $80,000 per year, working considerable overtime. Perhaps if Tri-Met limited the OT it allowed, it wouldn't be doing so poorly, financially.

Jack, glad to see that someone is paying attention.

IMO Fareless Square has seen its day. Since the MAX is now going to run through the downtown bus mall, all MAX trains and buses as well as the streetcar should charge for ALL trips. At least $1.00 for the current fareless area. That would be fair to the merchants on NW 23rd who are already at a disadvantage because Fareless Square extends to the Lloyd Center but not to their shopping district. They, alone, are excluded.

This would avoid confusion about whether the streetcar is "free", as many think, throughout its complete route. It would also avoid having to employ expensive methods (like the following) to insure that everybody outside Fareless Square pays.

If Fareless Square is not eliminated, there should be a second Tri-Met employee on each streetcar in the absence of any other kind of process that would insure that everyone who boards has paid.

Tri-Met should hire young riders who look like regular commuters if it has to rather that the soft-peddling "survey takers" who gently - and only occasionally - remind people to pay. The undercover Tri-Met employees could crack down on the scofflaws by catching them red-handed. I wouldn't be against locking down the streetcar at a stop outside the fareless area so that nobody can leave and go through the car from one end to the other, handing out fines to anybody who hasn't paid. It happens on MAX.

Probably not if you consider the costs of training new drivers. There is a reason that companies pay over OT -- its cheaper than training, retaining and compensating new employees. In addition, you don't have to pay the basic costs again of things like uniforms, health insurance or overhead.

I'm pretty sure most drivers don't come close to $80K/yr. Just a guess.

Light rail and street cars are really public luxury goods. It seems o.k. to build an extension when the coffers are spilling over with excess revenue, but those days have left for awhile, maybe a long while. Yet Portland cityhall is pushing lightrail for the extra lane(s) to be added to the Columbia River Crossing bridge, and they plan to restrict the C-tran to stopping at the Expo center, requiring transfer to the slow meandering light rail system through North Portland. The C-tran could just as easily continue to be expressed to downtown Portland saving folks a lot of commute time. Portland cityhall specializes in adding burden to everyday's citzens' lives. Metro obliges cityhall.

the streetcar should charge for ALL trips. At least $1.00 for the current fareless area.

Farebox revenues are so little a factor in what pays for Tri-Met that it doesn't surprise me that the managers don't care too much about collecting or enforcing them. Try to take a free ride on the payroll tax, though, and watch what happens.

The Tri-Met bus system was the envy of the nation, but now the streetcar mania is going to destroy it. If you have to take two buses to get from Grant High School to downtown, something is very, very wrong.

The ONLY thing on which I agreed with the Bushies...buses move people much more economically and with much more efficiency than any other transportation option.
Good luck going anyplace by bus in the future.
And I fondly remember the olden days of Rose City buses. They were great and I think they were even profitable for a while.

"We wish we had never started the whole thing. Fixed rail is not the answer to the transportation needs of our city. We should stop all this insanity that has gone on these past years."

Richard Riordan, Mayor of Los Angeles, on public radio program,
"Which Way LA?," June 1998.

PDX should have used bus rapid transit using optical guidance.

Expense vs light rail. This is a big subject, but because most of the right of way (roadbed) is already in place, BRT systems are about a tenth of the cost of light rail in this region....Because it is so much less expensive, for the same budget BRT can cover about ten times the area and support ten times as much Transit Oriented Development ("walkable" neighborhoods) as LRT.
http://www.globaltelematics.com/padelford/brtpugetsound.htm

Light rail to the suburbs makes some sense. The streetcar makes no sense whatsoever, except to try to sell terrible apartments.

Light rail to the suburbs makes some sense.

Perhaps...but at whose expense?

There's growing sentiment in our SE neighborhood that the Milwaukie Light Rail MAX, as proposed, is at OUR expense.

Offering little in the way of service for us, it brings congestion and, most significantly, noise a la WES and those four blasts of a horn at every intersection in our densely packed neighborhood.

Meanwhile...bus service is going in the crapper, with our #14 no longer anything more than a "feeder route" --hey, we can "conveniently transfer"-- and #10's service is disappeared for the weekend.

At least they're charging us less for our bus service with this reduction of service. (Tee hee!)

Hey "mp97303"

It's no longer called Transit Oriented Development. That is so last century.

It's now Development Oriented Transit. As in like, say, the loopy loop streetcar proposed for SE...it's no longer about moving people, but about moving real estate.

It's past time that "progressive" Portland folks wake up and realize that the tighty righties aren't always wrong about everything. The people running Portland are taking apart its livability day by day and handing it to fat cat construction companies and developers, all with the tireless contributions of unqualified hipsters who get "planner" jobs from clowns like the mayor. Go by streetcar, Frank.

I think, Jack, that you'll find most "fat cat construction companies" are more Republican than "progressive". There's the thin veneers and then there's what's behind the masks. The games people play to be players in the People's Republic of Portland.

I think Sam Adams has the potential and work ethic to be the best Mayor this City's ever had. That's why I voted for him, and stand by that decision, whatever I may feel about his choice of boyfriends.

What's too often missing from the discussion is what's the alternative? Levittown? New York City? Jersey City? Las Vegas? Miami?

Bend? Beaverton?

I wish there were easy answers, just like there are runway lights, and computers, directing pilots where to land.

Sometimes you just have to suck it up and land in the river. Hoping for the best with no guarentee of success. But lives do count in our decision making, and no one promised it would be easy.

"the streetcar should charge for ALL trips. At least $1.00 for the current fareless area."

They won't because ridership numbers would tank. If they cahrged what it costs, would people pay $6/ride for MAX?

God knows what the figures are for the streetcar are since they like burying real numbers over at TriMet.

I think we have a great public transportation system in Portland.. its a model for other cities as far as Im concerned.. sure, there are issues from time to time, but it has allowed for me to get rid of my car and insurance cost by using a combination of Trimet, biking, walking and Zip Car to meet my transportation needs...and I look forward to a proposed streetcar to service the inner SE Hawthorne/Belmont district...

I would imagine that Tri Met got it in the shorts last week when Grant HS parents got an all points email blast pointing out how disruptive the route 33 changes were going to be to NE kids getting to and from schools like Alameda, Beaumont MS and Grant.

Hell hath no fury like an angry NE parent and a lot have memories of poor 14 yr old Melissa Bittler who was raped and murdered in 2001 going to her NE bus stop before school.

No buses >>> more kids walking >>> more car congestion >> more prowlers >> more accidents. I hope the policy wonks at Tri met have their "regrets" speech worked out.

Robert-

I'm surprised you have such enthusiasm for the coming street car revolution. I, too, live in inner SE. From my sprawling manse, I can walk fairly comfortably to and from the 19, 12, 14, and 15 for my daily commute downtown. In the mornings, my trip in on the 19 is about 20 minutes door to door. I assume you're in a similar position. How will streetcars improve that?

Maybe some of those buses you mentioned might be used in other lanes if the street car replaces some of those bus lines... they don't need street cars and buses on the same lane... and besides that, arent street cars cleaner to operate? Im taking a wait and see attitude... Im not a transportation activist by any stretch of the term, I just like the lifestyle that Trimet affords me and those who live in the inner city that it works well for...

Steve wrote: "God knows what the figures are for the streetcar are since they like burying real numbers over at TriMet."

We know that Tri-Met receives a fat subsidy from the city for operating in Fareless Square. Obviously they count on this to cover the expense of operating was is essentially a free streetcar loop service. It's conceivable that the city sees this as a tourism investment and the money is coming out of tourism as well as transportation funds. I really don't know.

The existing streetcar is an expensive toy that we all subsidize and it goes nowhere that buses don't already go.

"If they charged what it costs, would people pay $6/ride for MAX?"

Now I am curious, so I visited TriMet.org

http://trimet.org/publications/index.htm

and downloaded the 2008 fiscal report and ridership data. Some interesting stats:

Revenue Hours
1998 = 1.42M 2008 = 1.71M so about 2% a year increase in use

2008 Passenger Reveuue = $80.8M
2008 Expenses = $463M
So each $1 of revenue = $4 of subsidy

Finally the most fascinating item:
Labor
2008 = $128.6M 2007 = $121.1M
Fringe Benefits
2008 = $151.8M 2007 = $98.5M

What the heck are the fringe benefits that they are 15% bigger than payroll?

"That's why I voted for him, and stand by that decision, whatever I may feel about his choice of boyfriends."

How do you feel about his lying? Not just to get elected but to shove stuff thru like the TRAM and PGE park with Vera? Don't forget the $450M to fix roads last year we didn't have, but we have a reserve fund this year that has $900M.

The guy's a sociopath.

The whole payroll tax thing is just about the biggest sham I've ever heard of. It just continually amazes me how crooked some of our municipal organizations are. I probably shouldn't me amazed anymore, but they keep taking it to new depths of skankiness.

We really shouldn't be dismantling the bus system to pay for "vapid transit" (more fitting name for "development-oriented transit") that serves no one and just creates "PR moments". What Metro has allowed in Washington County after the MAX irritates me to no end.

I also agree that Fareless has probably outlived its usefulness, though that will undoubtedly show just how inefficient the idiotic transit mall and Streetcar are.

Would "fringe benefits" be health care?

"Would "fringe benefits" be health care?"

Must be very nice health care at 120% of your pay.

Frank, I'm sorry, I have to take exception to your claim that "most fat cat construction companies" are Republican. I think you know that Walsh Construction, Homer and Dame, Gerding Edlen, Hoffman, and the list goes on are more partial to the "progressive" causes and politicians. Of course, most companies have been wise to grease the skids on both sides.

"That would be fair to the merchants on NW 23rd who are already at a disadvantage because Fareless Square extends to the Lloyd Center but not to their shopping district. They, alone, are excluded."

Um, you do know that most of the city is found East of Lloyd Center, don't you? It's all excluded too. We unwashed hordes on the Eastside even have a few shopping districts, if you can believe it.

***

Streetcar acheives nothing that a bus can't at a ton of extra cost. There is zero justification for streetcar service. The streetcar is for postcards, period.

"That would be fair to the merchants on NW 23rd who are already at a disadvantage"

Fareless Square existed before northwest TrendyThird. You aren't allowed to move into the new hip place to be, and then cry that you don't have amenities of some other place in town, when those amenities were there before you moved.

Business owners get to make decisions: Do I want to be in this upscale "livable" "walkable" "sustainable" area, or have the increased storefront traffic afforded by being in a free transit zone?

They made their choice.

If Tri Met doubled fares, and ditched fareless square, it would attract wealthier riders who don't want to ride with poor people on crowded busses/rail.

MachineFred, I lived one block off 23rd in late 60's, early 70's and 23rd began its transformation clear back then. It was slow at first then really accelerated-all before fareless square. Sorry, you're wrong.

“Perhaps if Tri-Met limited the OT it allowed, it wouldn't be doing so poorly, financially.”
~~>They can’t seem to figure out how to make a livable situation for its drivers hence they have a huge sick out problem.
.................
“In addition, you don't have to pay the basic costs again of things like uniforms, health insurance or overhead.”
~~>That does not negate the potential to make appropriate plans to fit schedules into straight time positions. It doesn’t save anything to have a driver making 50k in overtime, that is more than the cost of hiring a new driver.
..........................
“I'm pretty sure most drivers don't come close to $80K/yr.”
~~>47k is the full time operators take home without overtime
.....................
“The Tri-Met bus system was the envy of the nation, but now the streetcar mania is going to destroy it. If you have to take two buses to get from Grant High School to downtown, something is very, very wrong.”
~~>Good point!
....................
“The existing streetcar is an expensive toy that we all subsidize and it goes nowhere that buses don't already go.”
~~~>The streetcar is definitely a tourist attraction, as is the tram. That’s what the planners were thinking. They want Portland on the map and can’t figure out any other way to do it!
.......................
“What the heck are the fringe benefits that they are 15% bigger than payroll?”
~~>Point the finger at our health care system for causing this mess, not trimet.
...................

TRIMET’s real problem is the huge sprawling bureaucracy, lots and lots of managers.
Of course these silly pet projects are dragging the rest of us down, like that WES, and these free streetcars for the rich and the tourists.

TRIMET used to be special and was lauded as a national example of how to do transit right.

Now its just another ho hum transit district sucking down tax dollars and screwing its riding public.