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This page contains a single entry from the blog posted on June 10, 2008 9:02 PM. The previous post in this blog was The NBA is, indeed, fixed. The next post in this blog is County courthouse blues. Many more can be found on the main index page or by looking through the archives.

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Tuesday, June 10, 2008

Solution to our problems

Let's all carry guns on our hips.

Comments (19)

Open carry is stupid for a number of tactical reasons.

Concealed carry with training is the absolute best way one can protect themselves and their loved ones.

High income, high social rank, geographical isolation and social exclusivity are the absolute best ways one can protect themselves and their loved ones. Guns are useful only for the intervening moments of vulnerability. And for overthrowing illegitimate, criminal governments. In theory, anyway.

I found the way that was written to be rather smug and irritating, though I agree with the general sentiment of Joey Link's comment above. I mean, the author seems to imply that if loads of people started to carry firearms to the grocery store or whatever, then all hell would break loose, because it's simply in human nature to use a firearm in the commission of a violent crime if you own enough of them for long enough.

Um, Earth to Author: A huge percentage of Americans do carry firearms with them as they go about their daily business, and in every single area this has been legalized, the crime rates have gone down.

Now, the counter-argument to this that is currently very much in vogue, is that the Roe vs Wade decision is the principal cause of the drop in violent crime rates since their all time peak in 1980. In other words, the children of the poor were aborted, and never had a chance to contribute to violent crime statistics. Though this wanders into what is essentially an argument in favor of Eugenics, there may actually be some truth to it.

Me, personally, well, I collect antique firearms...ranging from pre-Civil War muskets to early 20th century Russian stuff. I've got a whole bunch of guns, enough to make most Socialists pee their panties in horror, and yet I don't commit violent crimes. I have no desire at all to do so, either.

Sixteen years ago this summer, I testified as one of the main witnesses in a rather well-publicized murder trial. The brother of the kid who was killed was one of the people who turned me around on some of the rather naive views I held at the time...he told me, straight up, that the family of the vicious man we sent to prison had threatened revenge, that there was only so much the police could do, and that if I was smart, I would obtain the tools and training to properly defend myself.

Fast forward 16 years.

That man will be getting out of prison sooner or later.

I have to live with this.

How do you suggest I deal with this gentleman and/or his associates when they come for me, as he has long threatened, Professor Bogdanski ?

+1 Joey.

Thank goodness Oregon is "must issue" even if Kroeker wasn't.

How do you suggest I deal with this gentleman

Whatever you do, don't carry your gun out in the open on your hip.

Oh, I'm not that much of a fool...

As a side note, wasn't "Chief Kroeker" the absolute best name for a horrible fascist ever ? I literally fell down laughing when I first heard that one...it's right up there with "Captain Bonfield" of the Chicago Police in that famous novelization of the Haymarket bombing by Frank Harris, The Bomb.

"How do you suggest I deal with this gentleman and/or his associates when they come for me, as he has long threatened, Professor Bogdanski ?"

Do as Jack would do, dial 911. And then wait how long it takes for the cops to come and save your @$$. The guys that shoot you will eventually stand trial for your murder, so you can at least die knowing that. (end sarcasm)

I agree with the poster who said that open carry is tactically stupid. Let's see, bad guy comes in to rob the place, you're there with your exposed weapon, who do you think they're gonna take out first? Concealing your weapon gives you more tactical options.

And to the "blood will run in the streets if we let people carry weapons" crowd, listen, people are *already" carrying weapons. It's just that you can't see us when we do. And everyone that I know who carrys a gun fervently hopes that he or she never has to use it. Short of putting myself in danger, I'd try every other option to avoid using mine.

Every place that citizens are allowed to exercise their right to armed self-defense, crime goes down, as was amply illustrated in John Lott's book, "More Guns, Less Crime." Lott went county by county across the United States, comparing crime statistics and the availability of gun permits. It's an interesting read, if a little dry at times. The anti-self-defense crowd has been trying to "debunk" the book for years, and has never been able to mount any kind of rational rebuttal.

I encourage everyone that values their own skin to at least have a gun in the house and learn how to use it. Even if you have young kids, you can get a gun vault that keeps your pistol close near your bed for ready access, yet keeps it away from the kids (or the burglar that breaks into your house while you are at work).

Get training; the Clackamas County Sheriff's office runs the Public Safety Training Center out on Sunnyside Road, and both the spouse and I took lots of great classes there. My fellow classmates were nice, normal people who were committed to surviving a confrontation with an armed bad guy, and were willing to take responsibility for their own safety. I always laugh when the rabid anti-choice crowd tries to paint people who like to shoot as stupid hicks. Demographically, we tend to be above-average in income and education. Having dealt with the industry for a while now, I think I can say that across the board. Demonizing gun owners is a societally acceptable form of bigotry, but it's bigotry all the same.

I don't advocate everyone should be doing open carry yet I do want the option if I so choose. Not because I want to carry a gun on my hip while going to the grocery store but for a couple specific activities I like to do.

1) Target shooting is fun for me. Sometimes I'll drive up into the wood, find an old rock quarry and shoot at targets. I used to hunt but quit, to many idiots running around with rifles in the woods scare the hell out of me. After witnessing a few things that gave me white hair I gave up on hunting.

2) I spend a lot of time out in the woods riding horses. It's nice to have the gun along for protection from animals (4 legged or two). Also, a horse can go down when trail riding with a broken leg and need to be put down. You can't call a vet out in the woods and need to do it yourself. Personally I can't stand the idea of slitting their throat with my knife which is the other way of putting them down.

I could go get a conceal carry permit but choose not to. There is no desire in me to actually carry a gun around on a daily basis for protection.

"People who fetishize guns are never content, in the end, to simply own them. At some point, they feel compelled to wield the power they hold in their hands."

Amen, Brother.

Seen it. Experienced it firsthand.

If you think loonies can't get a concealed weapons permit, you're fooling yourself.

More guns equals more gun deaths.

Boy, Pat Malach, a lot of assumptions and generalizations there.

Just becuase you've experienced or seen something doesn't mean it's true in all cases.

More cars equal more car-related deaths too.

More bicycle riders around Portland is equaling more bicycle-related fatalities.

Where do the generalities end? I've yet to wield the power of my guns, but certainly would if external circumstances force me to protect myself, my home and/or my family against "loonies" - whether they have CC permits or not.

Pat writes:
"Seen it. Experienced it firsthand."
===

Great, glad you have seen things. But your first hand experience may or may not be representative of what goes on more broadly, like across all of Oregon, or the USA.

"If you think loonies can't get a concealed weapons permit, you're fooling yourself."
===

True, but you are fooling yourself if you think loonies actually do bother to get a CWP. The subset of society who actually bother to get a CWP are one of the highest groups that don't commit crimes, and who don't exhibit loonie-like behavior. Once they do go loonie on you, the local sheriff can and does remove their CWP. (See Sheriff Bernie, who some consider a loonie himself)

How many CWP holders have 'gone postal' in your vast first hand experience? Please cite your sources.

"More guns equals more gun deaths."
====

Pat, do you have a source for that statistic? Or is that just your ill informed opinion, based upon you "first hand" common sense?

Pat is very confused, not unlike many who spout off on this topic.

Pat has not read the book that commenter "al" has recommended: "Every place that citizens are allowed to exercise their right to armed self-defense, crime goes down, as was amply illustrated in John Lott's book, "More Guns, Less Crime."

Having said all that, I agree with Jack's advice above to the person interested in self defense: "Whatever you do, don't carry your gun out in the open on your hip."

But if what you want to do is make a statement (and not provide maximum self protection), then by all means show off your gun for all to see.

Well Pat, why don't you look into the problems Great Britain is having with crime since they essentially banned guns.

I believe you can carry open anywhere in Oregon except for in Eugene, Salem and Portland. I haven't read about any problems with gun toting nuts around the state.

"I don't advocate everyone should be doing open carry yet I do want the option if I so choose. Not because I want to carry a gun on my hip while going to the grocery store but for a couple specific activities I like to do.

1) Target shooting is fun for me. Sometimes I'll drive up into the wood, find an old rock quarry and shoot at targets. I used to hunt but quit, to many idiots running around with rifles in the woods scare the hell out of me. After witnessing a few things that gave me white hair I gave up on hunting.

2) I spend a lot of time out in the woods riding horses. It's nice to have the gun along for protection from animals (4 legged or two). Also, a horse can go down when trail riding with a broken leg and need to be put down. You can't call a vet out in the woods and need to do it yourself. Personally I can't stand the idea of slitting their throat with my knife which is the other way of putting them down."

Two good examples of when open carry would be a good option, among many others. I agree that I like having the option, though I don't choose to exercise it. Isn't that what freedom is all about?

"I believe you can carry open anywhere in Oregon except for in Eugene, Salem and Portland. I haven't read about any problems with gun toting nuts around the state."

I'm pretty sure there's no ordinance in Portland banning open carry. I'm not sure about the other cities.

Googling found this forum, where it appears several people have thrown tactical advantage out the window: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum45/

peace through superior firepower.

i mean, history shows it works, right?

therefore, i say we dump the rules and let anybody who can get guns today purchase any weapon they want--rocket launcher, mobile anti-tank platform, submachine gun, anything.

then, by god, let the criminals come. i'll be safe in my machine gun nest--i mean, unless they can afford a tank or something. but then i'll get a bigger tank. of course, then they'll get *two* tanks, and I'll be forced to obliterate them with my personal nuclear arsenal. unless they launch a pre-emptive strike. in which case I'd better go launch mine now, for god's sake. frickin' lunatics, I'll teach them a lesson.

whew. now I've got peace. I mean, unless somebody else has more weapons. guess I'd better go stock up.

LIARS Larson broadcasted today that he is ready to compel scientists, at the barrel of a gun, to hurry up and invent a replacement for oil ... or he was going to start shooting. Since other motorists have been coming into his gas station and removing the supply he wanted some of, to put in his 'rig'. That threat of theft in his own vicinity feels to him like his life is endangered.

Things are getting ugly ... drivers are turning to violence.

LIARS wears a shootin' iron on his lip, unlicensed.

LIARS

You know, you seem very much emotionally invested in Larson and his radio personality. Me, I find his show rather dull and plebian...boring...so I hardly ever tune in. Whole weeks and months go by where I never even think about the guy.

I'm just sayin...

"Once they do go loonie on you, the local sheriff can and does remove their CWP."

I can tell you for a fact, that is absolutely untrue. Nothing you can say disproves what I've seen with my own eyes. Sorry.

"How many CWP holders have 'gone postal' in your vast first hand experience?"

In my firsthand experience? ONE. And let me tell you, it was more than enough. In fact, a sheriff's deputy referred to the person in question as "fucking nuts," but added that once a person has a permit, it's near impossible to take it away.

My original comment was pretty darn short to rate so many much, much longer responses telling me how I'm "generalizing."

I simply said that our law most certainly put hands in the guns of nuts, and sometimes those laws give the nuts the right to conceal those weapons.

That's a fact that I've witnessed first-hand.

You can twist my words and pretend I said that's the picture of all gun owners, but it's dishonest and ignores the real point I was making.

Usually when people do that in an argument it's because they know they're standing on flimsy ground.

Moreover, when I say we should do a better job of keeping guns out of the hands of nuts, why would a person think I'm trying to take his gun away unless he believes himself to fit that despcription.

Nothing brings 'em out of the woodwork like questioning this country's insane gun laws.

Open carry is the law in many states, including Oregon. The only reason Portland gets away with banning it is because nobody has challenged their ordinance in court. State law supersedes the local ordinance against open carry. I grew up 40 years ago in an open-carry state in the southwest. Many people packed heat in the open in rural areas and small-towns. Never seemed to bother anyone at the time. Some gun nut once said "an armed society is a polite society". Amen


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