Jack, are you wondering what McCain would do about waterboarding? He's been crystal clear about this -- McCain is an outspoken critic of the practice, has clearly stated that he thinks it is torture, and is in direct violation of the Geneva Convention. If McCain wins the WH, there will not be waterboarding sanctioned by the US Government.

Completely missing from the torture debate is any discussion of efficacy or reliability of information obtained through these methods.

For a story of interrogation methods used to track down al-Zarqawi, see this:

http://tinyurl.com/35sj5f

Thank you Rich. But why don't we just behead them on video?

Torture is pliers to the fingers, electrodes to the testicles, and the gouging out of eyesockets. Waterboarding is not torture. Waterboarding is fear. Learn to discern. And get a grip too.

Waterboarding is not torture. Waterboarding is fear.

So you are okay with your local police agency using this method on suspects?

So you are okay with your local police agency using this method on suspects?

Of course not. And they don't. But the people that waterboarding is used on have no rights whatsoever, other than whatever minimal human rights that they are worthy of, which is far more than they'd ever grant the likes of you when the shoe is on the other foot. Like I said, learn to discern.

But the people that waterboarding is used on have no rights whatsoever

After the last eight years you trust the US government to correctly make the distinction as to who deserves this treatment?

Do to our enemies as they would do to us? Perhaps we should plant IED's in areas frequented by insurgents? Decapitate enemy corpses. They do it, so it's ok eh Zeb? Remember, these are interrogation techniques. The most effective is showing empathy and respect. When the enemy realizes there is a better way to treat others, they tend to open up. Brutality only reduces our humanity to their level. An eye for an eye. I hope most in this country have evolved beyond such vengeful thinking.

Perhaps this morning's testimony from the new Attorney General Michael Mukasey would be helpful:

At one point Senator Kennedy posed a blunt question to Mukasey: "Would waterboarding be torture if it was done to you?"

The attorney general responded, "I would feel that it was."

"When the enemy realizes there is a better way to treat others, they tend to open up."

Also, nobody wants to help a tyrannical government. If we treated enemy prisoners humanely, they might start thinking that they're fighting for the wrong side. That's what happened with some British soldiers in our Revolution. This helped us win our independence and led to changes within Britain.

We're ignoring the wisdom of the founders by coming up with legalistic justifications to torture anyone. We're losing our moral justification to exist as a nation.

The most apt description I have yet heard of McCain is that "he puts a kind face on war-mongering."

Jerry- Thank you Rich. But why don't we just behead them on video?

You are saying that dunking their head in water to get information is the same as cutting their head off for propaganda?
Interesting.

PMG- So you are okay with your local police agency using this method on suspects?

That would be stupid, and illegal. But I dont see a problem using it on terrorists trying to kill Americans.

But I dont see a problem using it on terrorists trying to kill Americans.

So you're okay using on people we initially thought *might* be terrorists, but later turn out not to be?

"That would be stupid, and illegal. But I dont see a problem using it on terrorists trying to kill Americans."

Then your head is in the sand. What exactly is the difference?

Waterboarding is stupid and illegal when done to ANYBODY, even "terrorists trying to kill Americans."

what a place we've come to when we carefully, analytically debate how far you can abuse someone before it's "torture."

and for those that don't understand why "the end justifies the means" is the wrong way to live as a nation (and human), may you never be on the receiving end of that philosophy.

So you're okay using on people we initially thought *might* be terrorists, but later turn out not to be?

Well, they dont just pick people at random. There had to be a reason they went after that person in the first place.
But yes, I am ok with that.

What should we do? Just ask them? Say please? Give them a cold drink...a flower...a pat on the head?

If McCain wins the WH, there will not be waterboarding sanctioned by the US Government.

Except when training our elite soldiers and foreign agents so they can endure "torture" by other entities.

Zeb makes the mistake of claiming that only physical deformation is "torture." Note that Zeb's definition thus allows any technique that leaves no mark--this includes waterboarding, electrocution, sleep deprivation, and many, many other extremely painful torture techniques.

Waterboarding is torture, by definitions agreed upon in the Army Field manual, by training manuals published by the CIA.

Waterboarding is not new--it was first mastered by the Spanish Inquisition more than 500 years ago.

On top of it all, Jon, TORTURE DOES NOT WORK! It is an unreliable way to get information from suspects.

Read Darius Rejali's tome, Torture and Democracy, before you post any more on the subject.

It is sickening and embarrassing to debate this waterboarding/torture subject. Waterboarding is torture used only by criminals and totalitarian regimes.