Another bad weekend for me in the NFL underdog football has come and gone. There were several good picks to be had, and commenters here had them, but I decided to go with the majority view and ride on Tampa Bay, said to be "better on both sides of the ball" than Detroit. Gong!
Sebastian told me "Buff at home," but did I listen? No! Travis had Da Bearss, but he pointed out how it could go wrong, and so did I take them? No! My friend Gordon even e-mailed me Kansas City -- Gordon the Gambler! -- and did I heed his sage advice? No!
How to watch your 20 bucks fly away -- pick football games by committee.
Anyway, we're getting a bit anxious, as there's now someone 17 points ahead of us with only 10 weeks left in the regular season. The pool goes into the playoffs, but it's hard to make up ground there because the spreads are low and the picks are few. If we're going to win one of the two prizes, we're going to need much better skill and luck than before. And quickly -- otherwise, pretty soon we're going to have to start going with long bombs only.
Here are this week's 'dogs, in caps, with six of them playing at home. Pick one for us who's going to win their game outright, and tell us about it in the comments. If you were right last week, point that out as well. This week, the majority isn't necessarily going to rule my pick.
Remember, the 'dog has to win outright for me to get anywhere. Comments that allude to beating the spread aren't helpful. The points are there only to show what I'll get if I pick that underdog and they win:
16 WASHINGTON at New England
11.5 HOUSTON at San Diego
9.5 MIAMI vs. New York Giants
7.5 OAKLAND at Tennessee
6.5 CAROLINA vs. Indianapolis
5 DETROIT at Chicago
4 JACKSONVILLE at Tampa Bay
3.5 CINCINNATI vs. Pittsburgh
3 ST. LOUIS vs. Cleveland
3 BUFFALO at New York Jets
3 GREEN BAY at Denver
2.5 SAN FRANCISCO vs. New Orleans
1 MINNESOTA vs. Philadelphia
If I didn't know I was an idiot in these matters, I'd like Carolina to pull the big upset. They're on a roll, at home, and Indy can't go on forever. St. Louis has not played well, but they're at home against Cleveland -- is Cleveland any good? I'd even think about betting against San Diego given the wildfire situation, but Houston?
Betting against the Bears has been a good play this year, but can the Lions rise to the occasion? Niners at home? Green Bay coming off the bye looks good, and the Denver crowd will be distracted by the World Series, and so maybe there's some hay to be made there.
Let fly with your predictions, folks. And if you fed me six wrong picks last week (you know who you are), please try again, as it may tell me where not to go.
Comments (24)
This probably falls in the totally insane category, but this may be the week to pick against the PATRIOTS. I know. it's crazy, but, without going into a lot of detail, here are the main reasons:
1) historically, it is almost impossible for an NFL team to go undefeated - the Pats may do it, but they will more likely lose an unexpected game at some point.
2) The Redskins are have a pass defense that is either inept or disruptive depending on the game. If you get disruptive, they might actually be able to slow down the Brady attack.
3) Add up all the little factors, and you probably get to a 25% chance the Skins will win (instead of, say, the 1% chance everyone thinks). Still not likely, but with the spread, it gives you an anticipated value of 4 points. There's no way Houston or Miami wins this weekend, so your next best bet is Oakland. To get the same value, you'd have to anticipate that Oakland has a better than 50% chance of winning - which they don't. After that, no one comes close in terms of value.
Washington has a very stingy defense (5th v. run, 8th v pass) but look at who they played...Miami, Phi, Detroit, AZ, Giants, GB. Not exactly marquee teams. At the same time, Washington not only has to shut down NE, it has to score 16 more points than NE, and NE has over twice as many points this year than Wash (279 for NE, 122 for Wash). Other than Detroit, Wash averages just over 16 points per game. So, if Wash manages to hold NE to 14 points, it would have to score 30. So, while anything is "possible" it is highly improbable Wash will cover the spread in this game. The only wildcard in favor of Wash is that NE plays Indy the following week so maybe, just maybe NE waltzes ino the game focused on the following week. I doubt Billy B and Tom Brady are those type of professionals.
Okay, you've called some of us out, Jack. It hurts. RAIDERS is my pick of the week. (I'm trying to get you into the game with 7.5 quick ones.) After that I'd go 49ERS over the Saints. They're at home in front of the boo-birds, that should help.
Green Bay over Denver. 3 pts is better than no points, and that's the best pick out of the lot.
Other picks could be: Buffalo or Jacksonville. Buffalo is the sleeper team of the year and the Jets are just not good. Jacksonville played Indy tough the first half, but it will depend if David Gerrard is coming back or not. No Gerrard, no pick.
Just to clarify here: The underdog just has to win the actual game, not by any particular margin, to win in this game. The point spread is relevant only in moving the gamblers up the pool standings.
And so Travis, Wash is a good pick for me if I think it will win by even 1 point.
And John, 3 points is just like no points in determining whether I think Green Bay will win for me in the pool.
I had the odds screwed up anyway...I wrote it too early in the morning. The 16 point spread means NE would have to beat Wash by 16, not Wash beating NE by 16.
So...your pick actually has to win? Then the Wash pick is even worse than I thought!
Kind of a wierd week. Miami/N.Y. in London. San Diego game may get switched to Houston, which would definitely impact the real point spread(I'm assuming yours are fixed). N.E. and Indy(coming off a Monday night game) would both be logically at risk of an upset. But Washington has a horrific third down conversion rate(a good barometer of how solid a team really is) and Carolina gets to pick between Carr or Testaverde at QB. I like Buffalo(played good ball the last three games, putting aside the last few minutes of the Dallas fiasco). I also like Oakland.
Detroit looks like the best of the lot. The lions are much improved this year. The bears defense has been shown to be weak at times. The bears "O" is downright sh***y on a good day.
I have heard others pick Wash to beat the patriots and if you are way behind why not go for broke. The other pick would be Houston over the chargers. Lots of disruptions down in soCal could help. If I was in your shoes I would go with the BIG upset and pick Wash. God forbid a boston team goes undefeated.
St. Louis is at home with Stephen Jackson returning from injury. This will be the first time they've had Bulger, Jackson, Holt and Bruce on the field at the same time since week 3 (back when they were losing close games).
The Browns are arguably the weakest defense in the NFL.
Too bad its only worth 3 points.
If you are judging this from risk/reward, the first poster made an excellent point about the value of taking Washington. The Pat's may be favored in every game they play for the rest of the season, but they will lose eventually. Washington is as likely to do it as anyone else and that's a lot of points for the gamble.
Lions v. Bears: People need to get off the Bear's O sucks. It sucked when Grossman was QB but the team averages over 23 points a game with Griese at the helm. It is a totally different offense now. The problem is the Bear's defense. It is ranked as 23 v the run and 26 v pass. But remember that those stats include when Grossman was QB and could not keep the offense on the field. When the offense does not play, the defense gets tired and allows more plays. I think the defense is improving now that Griese allows the defense a real break during the game. So while the Lions won the last meeting, don't expect a repeat as the Lions' defense is ranked 30 v the pass. Further, the Lion's offense has zero RB. Neither RB has over 200 yards the entire season! Kitna can only pass and his yards the last two games were both less than 200. Can the Lions win? Sure. But I would not pick them to win in Chicago until the Lions can cover Griese's passing efficiency.
Bills v. Jets: The Bills will start Edwards as their QB, who has 1 TD and 4 Ints. Although, the only TD so far is against the Jets which is the only game Edwards threw for over 200 yards. Total points score to date for Buffalo is 84, and at Dallas the offense didn't score a TD! It was the defense and special teams so subtract 21 points from 84. Only two other teams have score fewer total points. For the Jets, there is Chad Pennington who can lead the team to over 20 points easily but is completely inconsistent. These teams are even and Bills won the last slug fest, barely. I'm picking the Jets.
Beangles v. Steelers: Pit is ranked 3rd in defense. Beangles, ranked 30th. 'nuff said.
So, the best of the lot I think is Jacksonville over TB. TB has struggled the last three weeks getting in to the endzone. In only one game in the last three has TB scored at least 2 TD. Jacksonville has only allowed 87 points the entire year, second best in NFL, even after allowing 29 points by Indy. When picking a tough defense against a cold offense, I have to think the Jags can pull it off.
I agree that STL seems primed to get a win at home. The CLEV defense is non-existent. I think the Rams win 90-83.
For a little higher risk, you could look past CAR (who can't keep up in a shootout with David Carr or Uncle Vinny at the helm) and give OAK some serious consideration. Their D is good, TENN's Vince Young could be rusty coming back...I could see a game winning FG. Good value pick given the pts on the line.
O.K. I get it. So the point spread comes into play if a guy/gal correctly picks a dog with a larger spread vs. someone who correctly picks a dog with a lower spread.
No, no. Everyone who picks a winning dog earns points for that week equal to the spread for that game. At the end of the season, the one with the most points wins.
Charamba, Douro 2008
Horse Heaven Hills, Cabernet 2010
Lorelle, Horse Heaven Hills Pinot Grigio 2011
Avignonesi, Montepulciano 2004
Lorelle, Willamette Valley Pinot Noir 2011
Villa Antinori, Toscana 2007
Mercedes Eguren, Cabernet Sauvignon 2009
Lorelle, Columbia Valley Cabernet 2011
Purple Moon, Merlot 2011
Purple Moon, Chardonnnay 2011
Abacela, Vintner's Blend No. 12
Opula Red Blend 2010
Liberte, Pinot Noir 2010
Chateau Ste. Michelle, Indian Wells Red Blend 2010
Woodbridge, Chardonnay 2011
King Estate, Pinot Noir 2011
Famille Perrin, Cotes du Rhone Villages 2010
Columbia Crest, Les Chevaux Red 2010
14 Hands, Hot to Trot White Blend
Familia Bianchi, Malbec 2009
Terrapin Cellars, Pinot Gris 2011
Columbia Crest, Walter Clore Private Reserve 2009
Campo Viejo, Rioja, Termpranillo 2010
Ravenswood, Cabernet Sauvignon 2009
Quinta das Amoras, Vinho Tinto 2010
Waterbrook, Reserve Merlot 2009
Lorelle, Horse Heaven Hills, Pinot Grigio 2011
Tarantas, Rose
Chateau Lajarre, Bordeaux 2009
La Vielle Ferme, Rose 2011
Benvolio, Pinot Grigio 2011
Nobilo Icon, Pinot Noir 2009
Lello, Douro Tinto 2009
Quinson Fils, Cotes de Provence Rose 2011
Anindor, Pinot Gris 2010
Buenas Ondas, Syrah Rose 2010
Les Fiefs d'Anglars, Malbec 2009
14 Hands, Pinot Gris 2011
Conundrum 2012
Condes de Albarei, Albariño 2011
Columbia Crest, Walter Clore Private Reserve 2007
Penelope Sanchez, Garnacha Syrah 2010
Canoe Ridge, Merlot 2007
Atalaya do Mar, Godello 2010
Vega Montan, Mencia
Benvolio, Pinot Grigio
Nobilo Icon, Pinot Noir, Marlborough 2009
Portuga, Rose 2011
Revelation, Chardonnay, Pays d'Oc 2010
Beaulieu, Cabernet, Rutherford 2005
Monte Alto, Tinto Reserva 2005
Chateau Ste. Michelle, Cabernet, Indian Wells 2009
Espiral, Vinho Rose
Vin-Koru, Pinot Gris 2011
14 Hands, Hot to Trot Red 2009
Rodney Strong, Cabernet, Sonoma 2009
Abacela, Vintner's Blend #11
Portuga, White 2010
La Bourgeoisie, Red 2009
Januik, Red 2009
Three Rivers, River's Red 2008
Kirkland, Alexander Valley Merlot 2008
Muga, Rioja Rose 2010
Quinta das Amoras, Vinho Tinto 2009
Mauro Molino, Barbera d'Alba 2009
Garda Chiaretto Rose
Columbia Crest, Two Vines Vineyard 10 White
Chateau Ste. Michelle, Pinot Gris, Columbia Valley 2009
L'Hortus, Rose de Saignee 2010
Maculan, Pino & Toi 2008
McKinley Springs, Bombing Range Red 2008
Trader Joe's Pinot Gris 2009
Montes Alpha, Cabernet 2007
Gran Sasso, Sangiovese, Terre di Chieti 2009
Garda, Classico Chiaretto Rose
Beaulieu, Cabernet, Rutherford 1999
Picos del Montgo, Tempranillo 2008
Chateau de Montmirail, Vacqueyras 2008
La Granja 360, Syrah 2009
Montgras, Carmenere Reserva 2009
Lange, Pinot Gris 2009
Columbia Crest, Horse Heaven Hills Cabernet 2008
Kirkland, Pinot Grigio 2010
Trader Joe's Coastal Syrah 2009
Columbia Crest, Horse Heaven Hills Merlot 2008
Trader Joe's Coastal Chardonnay 2009
Vieux Papes Red
Domaine de l'Aujardiere, Chardonnay 2009
Santa Rita, Cabernet, Medalla Real 2007
Penfold's, Koonunga Hill Shiraz Cabernet 2008
Guild, Red, Lot #02 2008
Dievole, Dievolino Sangiovese 2008
Laforet, Burgogne Chardonnay 2009
Columbia Winery, Merlot 2007
Bonterra, Cabernet 2008
Elk Cove, Pinot Gris 2009
Maquis Lien 2006
Scott Paul, Pinot Noir, Le Paulee 2007
The Occasional Book
Neil Young - Waging Heavy Peace
Mark Bego - Aretha Franklin, the Queen of Soul (2012 ed.)
Jenny Lawson - Let's Pretend This Never Happened
J.D. Salinger - Franny and Zooey
Charles Dickens - A Christmas Carol
Timothy Egan - The Big Burn
Deborah Eisenberg - Transactions in a Foreign Currency
Kurt Vonnegut Jr. - Slaughterhouse Five
Kathryn Lance - Pandora's Genes
Cheryl Strayed - Wild
Fyodor Dostoyevsky - The Brothers Karamazov
Jack London - The House of Pride, and Other Tales of Hawaii
Jack Walker - The Extraordinary Rendition of Vincent Dellamaria
Colum McCann - Let the Great World Spin
Niccolò Machiavelli - The Prince
Harper Lee - To Kill a Mockingbird
Emma McLaughlin & Nicola Kraus - The Nanny Diaries
Brian Selznick - The Invention of Hugo Cabret
Sharon Creech - Walk Two Moons
Keith Richards - Life
F. Sionil Jose - Dusk
Natalie Babbitt - Tuck Everlasting
Justin Halpern - S#*t My Dad Says
Mark Herrmann - The Curmudgeon's Guide to Practicing Law
Barry Glassner - The Gospel of Food
Phil Stanford - The Peyton-Allan Files
Jesse Katz - The Opposite Field
Evelyn Waugh - Brideshead Revisited
J.K. Rowling - Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone
David Sedaris - Holidays on Ice
Donald Miller - A Million Miles in a Thousand Years
Mitch Albom - Have a Little Faith
C.S. Lewis - The Magician's Nephew
F. Scott Fitzgerald - The Great Gatsby
William Shakespeare - A Midsummer Night's Dream
Ivan Doig - Bucking the Sun
Penda Diakité - I Lost My Tooth in Africa
Grace Lin - The Year of the Rat
Oscar Hijuelos - Mr. Ives' Christmas
Madeline L'Engle - A Wrinkle in Time
Steven Hart - The Last Three Miles
David Sedaris - Me Talk Pretty One Day
Karen Armstrong - The Spiral Staircase
Charles Larson - The Portland Murders
Adrian Wojnarowski - The Miracle of St. Anthony
William H. Colby - Long Goodbye
Steven D. Stark - Meet the Beatles
Phil Stanford - Portland Confidential
Rick Moody - Garden State
Jonathan Schwartz - All in Good Time
David Sedaris - Dress Your Family in Corduroy and Denim
Anthony Holden - Big Deal
Robert J. Spitzer - The Spirit of Leadership
James McManus - Positively Fifth Street
Jeff Noon - Vurt
Road Work
Miles run year to date: 21
At this date last year: 52
Total run in 2012: 129
In 2011: 113
In 2010: 125
In 2009: 67
In 2008: 28
In 2007: 113
In 2006: 100
In 2005: 149
In 2004: 204
In 2003: 269
Comments (24)
This probably falls in the totally insane category, but this may be the week to pick against the PATRIOTS. I know. it's crazy, but, without going into a lot of detail, here are the main reasons:
1) historically, it is almost impossible for an NFL team to go undefeated - the Pats may do it, but they will more likely lose an unexpected game at some point.
2) The Redskins are have a pass defense that is either inept or disruptive depending on the game. If you get disruptive, they might actually be able to slow down the Brady attack.
3) Add up all the little factors, and you probably get to a 25% chance the Skins will win (instead of, say, the 1% chance everyone thinks). Still not likely, but with the spread, it gives you an anticipated value of 4 points. There's no way Houston or Miami wins this weekend, so your next best bet is Oakland. To get the same value, you'd have to anticipate that Oakland has a better than 50% chance of winning - which they don't. After that, no one comes close in terms of value.
Posted by Luke | October 24, 2007 4:54 AM
Food for thought. Thank you.
Posted by Jack Bog | October 24, 2007 5:08 AM
Washington has a very stingy defense (5th v. run, 8th v pass) but look at who they played...Miami, Phi, Detroit, AZ, Giants, GB. Not exactly marquee teams. At the same time, Washington not only has to shut down NE, it has to score 16 more points than NE, and NE has over twice as many points this year than Wash (279 for NE, 122 for Wash). Other than Detroit, Wash averages just over 16 points per game. So, if Wash manages to hold NE to 14 points, it would have to score 30. So, while anything is "possible" it is highly improbable Wash will cover the spread in this game. The only wildcard in favor of Wash is that NE plays Indy the following week so maybe, just maybe NE waltzes ino the game focused on the following week. I doubt Billy B and Tom Brady are those type of professionals.
Posted by Travis | October 24, 2007 7:16 AM
Okay, you've called some of us out, Jack. It hurts. RAIDERS is my pick of the week. (I'm trying to get you into the game with 7.5 quick ones.) After that I'd go 49ERS over the Saints. They're at home in front of the boo-birds, that should help.
Posted by Mark Mason | October 24, 2007 7:29 AM
Green Bay over Denver. 3 pts is better than no points, and that's the best pick out of the lot.
Other picks could be: Buffalo or Jacksonville. Buffalo is the sleeper team of the year and the Jets are just not good. Jacksonville played Indy tough the first half, but it will depend if David Gerrard is coming back or not. No Gerrard, no pick.
And I picked Chicago last week.
Posted by John | October 24, 2007 7:33 AM
Just to clarify here: The underdog just has to win the actual game, not by any particular margin, to win in this game. The point spread is relevant only in moving the gamblers up the pool standings.
And so Travis, Wash is a good pick for me if I think it will win by even 1 point.
And John, 3 points is just like no points in determining whether I think Green Bay will win for me in the pool.
Posted by Jack Bog | October 24, 2007 8:28 AM
I had the odds screwed up anyway...I wrote it too early in the morning. The 16 point spread means NE would have to beat Wash by 16, not Wash beating NE by 16.
So...your pick actually has to win? Then the Wash pick is even worse than I thought!
Posted by Travis | October 24, 2007 8:55 AM
Kind of a wierd week. Miami/N.Y. in London. San Diego game may get switched to Houston, which would definitely impact the real point spread(I'm assuming yours are fixed). N.E. and Indy(coming off a Monday night game) would both be logically at risk of an upset. But Washington has a horrific third down conversion rate(a good barometer of how solid a team really is) and Carolina gets to pick between Carr or Testaverde at QB. I like Buffalo(played good ball the last three games, putting aside the last few minutes of the Dallas fiasco). I also like Oakland.
Posted by Gannicott | October 24, 2007 9:37 AM
Detroit looks like the best of the lot. The lions are much improved this year. The bears defense has been shown to be weak at times. The bears "O" is downright sh***y on a good day.
Posted by Mike | October 24, 2007 11:19 AM
I have heard others pick Wash to beat the patriots and if you are way behind why not go for broke. The other pick would be Houston over the chargers. Lots of disruptions down in soCal could help. If I was in your shoes I would go with the BIG upset and pick Wash. God forbid a boston team goes undefeated.
Posted by Travis Bryan | October 24, 2007 11:27 AM
Take it from a D.C. guy who gets stuck with their games every week - Skins suck and will not even come close to beating the Patriots.
I like the Pack at Denver.
Posted by Beltway Bandit | October 24, 2007 1:15 PM
So if you make a wrong pick then how are you penalized in the pool? Just curious.
My pick for the week in Jacksonville.
Posted by Usual Kevin | October 24, 2007 3:30 PM
No penalty for a wrong pick.
I should know.
Posted by Jack Bog | October 24, 2007 11:46 PM
"If I didn't know I was an idiot in these matters ..." That made me laugh out loud.
This week is hard. I - who have nothing to lose - would take Houston. Detroit is too risky a pick for the smaller payout.
Posted by Kevin | October 25, 2007 1:10 PM
I think the Rams get their first win this week.
St. Louis is at home with Stephen Jackson returning from injury. This will be the first time they've had Bulger, Jackson, Holt and Bruce on the field at the same time since week 3 (back when they were losing close games).
The Browns are arguably the weakest defense in the NFL.
Too bad its only worth 3 points.
If you are judging this from risk/reward, the first poster made an excellent point about the value of taking Washington. The Pat's may be favored in every game they play for the rest of the season, but they will lose eventually. Washington is as likely to do it as anyone else and that's a lot of points for the gamble.
Posted by PanchoPdx | October 26, 2007 7:47 AM
Only 2.5 but the Niners have their QB back from injury and are playing at home.
Posted by genop | October 26, 2007 8:46 AM
So how many picks do you get each week, and are you forced to use all of them?
Posted by Usual Kevin | October 26, 2007 12:26 PM
There are not good picks this week.
Lions v. Bears: People need to get off the Bear's O sucks. It sucked when Grossman was QB but the team averages over 23 points a game with Griese at the helm. It is a totally different offense now. The problem is the Bear's defense. It is ranked as 23 v the run and 26 v pass. But remember that those stats include when Grossman was QB and could not keep the offense on the field. When the offense does not play, the defense gets tired and allows more plays. I think the defense is improving now that Griese allows the defense a real break during the game. So while the Lions won the last meeting, don't expect a repeat as the Lions' defense is ranked 30 v the pass. Further, the Lion's offense has zero RB. Neither RB has over 200 yards the entire season! Kitna can only pass and his yards the last two games were both less than 200. Can the Lions win? Sure. But I would not pick them to win in Chicago until the Lions can cover Griese's passing efficiency.
Bills v. Jets: The Bills will start Edwards as their QB, who has 1 TD and 4 Ints. Although, the only TD so far is against the Jets which is the only game Edwards threw for over 200 yards. Total points score to date for Buffalo is 84, and at Dallas the offense didn't score a TD! It was the defense and special teams so subtract 21 points from 84. Only two other teams have score fewer total points. For the Jets, there is Chad Pennington who can lead the team to over 20 points easily but is completely inconsistent. These teams are even and Bills won the last slug fest, barely. I'm picking the Jets.
Beangles v. Steelers: Pit is ranked 3rd in defense. Beangles, ranked 30th. 'nuff said.
So, the best of the lot I think is Jacksonville over TB. TB has struggled the last three weeks getting in to the endzone. In only one game in the last three has TB scored at least 2 TD. Jacksonville has only allowed 87 points the entire year, second best in NFL, even after allowing 29 points by Indy. When picking a tough defense against a cold offense, I have to think the Jags can pull it off.
Posted by Travis | October 26, 2007 1:07 PM
I agree that STL seems primed to get a win at home. The CLEV defense is non-existent. I think the Rams win 90-83.
For a little higher risk, you could look past CAR (who can't keep up in a shootout with David Carr or Uncle Vinny at the helm) and give OAK some serious consideration. Their D is good, TENN's Vince Young could be rusty coming back...I could see a game winning FG. Good value pick given the pts on the line.
Posted by Sebastian | October 26, 2007 1:12 PM
Any JAX pick should come with the full knowledge that 'Quinn Gray' (possibly an alias) is starting QB. On the road.
Posted by Sebastian | October 26, 2007 1:18 PM
So how many picks do you get each week, and are you forced to use all of them?
We pick only one game a week.
Posted by Jack Bog | October 27, 2007 8:16 AM
O.K. I get it. So the point spread comes into play if a guy/gal correctly picks a dog with a larger spread vs. someone who correctly picks a dog with a lower spread.
Posted by Usual Kevin | October 27, 2007 9:05 AM
No, no. Everyone who picks a winning dog earns points for that week equal to the spread for that game. At the end of the season, the one with the most points wins.
The whole thing is explained here.
Posted by Jack Bog | October 27, 2007 10:28 AM
Chargers playing at home on Sunday, as per the schedule. I'd personally avoid picking HOU, if it's not too late.
Posted by Sebastian | October 27, 2007 12:03 PM