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This page contains a single entry from the blog posted on September 21, 2007 8:26 AM. The previous post in this blog was Transit-oriented gangbanging, cont'd. The next post in this blog is Have a great weekend. Many more can be found on the main index page or by looking through the archives.

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Friday, September 21, 2007

Who needs cops and traffic lights?

Crazy idea? Shockingly high projected infrastructure costs? Obvious environmental issues? A six-figure tab just to start "studying" it?

But it might help Homer, Joe, and the boys make a bundle off some more high-rise apartments?

Stand back, everybody, and let Portland City Hall come a-runnin' with the checkbook. Faster than you can say "public-private partnership."

Comments (10)

OH gee whiz,, how much green can a green city green when a green city uses all the green? Or borrows?

The water would be returned to the river at the same temperature it was originally.

I'm not a professional scientist or civil engineer.... but if the water is used for heat exchange with all of these buildings, wouldn't you need at least as much (if not more because of systemic inefficiency) inverse heat exchange before putting the water back at the same temperature it started? In other words, you'd get no net energy gain, and very likely a significant energy loss, with this system.

Centralized heating & cooling for a district would seem to be a swell idea (if expensive to set up), but using water from the Willamette seems just plain stupid. And if the guy who's pushing the whole project is pushing specifically for that aspect of it, you have to wonder what other sorts of inanity might be lurking here...

Crazy idea, but for cooling with river water, have they ever heard of swamp coolers which are au courant in the "backward" southern parts of the US? YOu take water soak a towel and blow air past it and voila - cool air! As far as using river water for a medium to carry heat throughout buildings, not real exciting in terms of energy efficiency.

Dear god, lets hope Randy doesn't get a book at the library this weekend and become an expert overnight or Erik is allowed to decide, then we are doomed.

...wouldn't you need at least as much (if not more because of systemic inefficiency) inverse heat exchange before putting the water back at the same temperature it started?

Yep, you hit the nail on the head - without it, water comes out hotter in the summer, cooler in the winter.

But the statement is likely intended more for political expediency for the EIS, than scientific reality.

This may surface as another vital linchpin but more likely it will be some enormously expensive endevour that will serve as something they can use to make themselves look moderate and prudent over when they take a pass on it.
Meanwhile they plow ahead with their current nitwit, cockamamie reckless crap as usual,,,seeking 100s of millions more for SoWa and push full steam ahead for the CC hotel, Milwaiukie light rail, and more streetcars.

Even today as I passed the 205 light railunder construction I noticed a significant LR bridge being built for the line at 205 and Johnson Creek Blvd. I am pretty sure that thing new light rail bridge will cost about 20 million or 1/3 of the cost of the Sellwood bridge replacemewnt.
And next up is not the Sellwood bridge, now closed to trucks and TriMet buses, but yet another light rail bridge over the Willamette for the Milwaukie Light
rail.
Steve Duin wrote about the use of lottery funds for wasteful the other day. He failed to mention the $250 million the legislature comitted from the lottery for Milwaukie light rail.
Again no talk of the Sellwood bridge while that 250 million was comitted.

It's all a very sick and screwed up mess.

Believe it or not.

OHSU and Mark Williams make perfectly good sense in asking Portland taxpayers to pay for their heating and cooling system and upkeep. It only makes logical sense when OHSU hasn't paid one cent for the infrastructures already completed in SoWhat. (It now should be called Wo-What?

In addition,in the press and URAC meetings OHSU has made a point that they expect taxpayers to pay for their future infrastructure costs when they develop their campus on the Schnitzer property. Now we must pay for their heating and cooling too. I won't be surprised when they ask that we "pay for their plumbing (and toilet paper) because it will be green.

As the Tribune article states, Vancouver's 80 acre "district energy system" will cost $15M. That means SoWhat's system serving 130 acres would cost $24.5M. Then add in the 8% that PDC uses for inflation factor for a reasonable 5 years to plan/build the system and you have a $36.2M cost. That isn't even including debt service cost or planning/staff/etc. costs-and of course the typical Portland three to four times over guessimate costs.

If you consider just some of the more obvious "gimmies" that are publicly known that has already been given to OHSU: $18.5M in "job/biotech incentives;
$5M for biotech space in the OHSU Health Club;
$3M for future parking spaces in OHSU's future parking garage;
no charges to OHSU in the LID formed to help pay for a portion of the trolley costs;
Reduced building/permit fees for the OHSU Health Club;
1/2 of all federal/state lobbying dollars that SoWhat acquires
......etc.;
then you combine it with all campus infrastructure taxpayer supported costs, "district energy system" costs, plus all the state taxes, lottery funds, given to
OHSU, you get MANY millions of our dollars going to OHSU.

Its for the children.

Central Portland used to have a steam hearing system, powered from a plant near the west end of the Marquam Bridge. It provided heat to many of the older downtown buildings, but it leaked and was decommissioned maybe 20 years ago.

We could put in this circulating-water system downtown. Of course, the city would have to tear up the railroad tracks and street improvements that are just now being finished . . .

Folks, I work construction, I've worked it for many years both out on construction sites and projects and in large manufacturing plants (which have HUGE heating and cooling systems). One thing is always true - pipes fail eventually. There is NOTHING that you can do to prevent it. When they do, it will depend on where they are and how badly they fail as to how much it costs to fix it and how soon it can be fixed. While the proposed system might function 20, 30 even 70 years with no problems, eventually it will fail. If you think it's expensive now to put the pipes in the ground, just think how expensive and time-consuming it will be to repair them when they fail. One more item to note, when they do start to fail, one section goes, then 2, 3 or 5 years later another section fails, followed by another section a year later. Beyond the impossible physics that they are introducing, they are setting the city up for a HUGE financial and logistic headache down the road. Just the reasons the city needs to say yes. Welcome to the next money-sucking bad idea folks. Welcome to Portland.

What about the Salmon? I thought the greenies were in favor of tearing down damns and opposing farmers who are sucking water out of the rivers?

The water belongs to the fishies, not the people. If you are pumping water out of the river, and into a power plant, FISH WILL DIE.

Oh the humanity!

What about the Salmon? SoWhat's past flood plain that allowed the Willamette to spread out for over an additional 8000 ft in width during our 50-100 year floods is now restricted to a narrow passage because over 9 ft of fill has been placed throughout SoWhat.

Channelizing rivers is what the environmentalist abhor, it kills fish, erodes banks, and in SoWhat's case will cause major erosion of Ross Island when the next flood comes. Plus, think of the hydraulic effect SoWhat's channelizing will have as it will speed up the water and increase the volume of water that will squirt directly downriver right at RiverPlace and Portland's downtown seawall. Vera's plywood seawall won't work (if it ever would).

Where were the greenies when SoWhat was being planned?


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