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This page contains a single entry from the blog posted on March 20, 2007 4:40 PM. The previous post in this blog was Smart Park garage condo tower scam implodes. The next post in this blog is Game report: Blazers 100, Wizards 98. Many more can be found on the main index page or by looking through the archives.

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Tuesday, March 20, 2007

Is the Prius bad for the environment?

Those nickel batteries in the Toyota hybrid are some seriously bad news from an ecological standpoint.

Comments (56)

I've been saying this for years, but nobody will listen. That article didn't cover any of the environmental issues that arise after the 100,000 miles when the dead batteries have to be disposed of.

They may make people feel green, but they certainly aren't better for the environment.

If that's true, that's bad news. I wonder what Toyota's response to that will be.

(Nice NBA thingy-majig!!!)

So...They've maintenance schedules on both vehicles that support the "lifetime mileage" claims?

I've heard that a lot of Hummers don't make it anywhere near the 300,000 mile mark, but that has to do with driving conditions that require a lot more "safety" features than are provided.

The 300K number is bunk. The story of the nickel is scary.

Anyone know where can I buy Prius offsets?

The 300K number is irrelevant. The story of the Prius is the story of political correctness substituted for inconvenient truth.

"They may make people feel green...."

But that's the point, isn't it? Barbara Streisand did her public service during the California 'Brown Outs' by telling all of us little people to hang dry our laundry keep our lights off......from one of her 3-4 air conditioned mansions that she gets to via private jet.

Going to be fun watching John Edwards rail against his opponents on the environment when he had to clear-cut about 20 acres of trees just to make room for his mansion and private sports court.....all candle-lit of course.

More good anti-prius info
Hybrid issues, and a rising star at Indy.
BY BROCK YATES, September 2005

I'm not exactly a betting man, but I'll give you 100 to 1 odds that if you're reading this nonsense you are not a hybrid-car owner. That's probably a good wager, considering that the new miracle vehicles are stuck at about a one-half-percent market share of the roughly 17 million annual new car and light-truck domestic sales and that you are vastly more likely to tear up the asphalt in a gas-swilling, earth-choking, mega-speed road rocket like the rest of us motorized Neanderthals.

Of course, if we pay attention to the Cassandra-like fulminations of the liberal media, we might be led to believe that hybrid vehicles are our only hope to save us all from ozone asphyxiation and indentured slavery to the Arab oil barons. To ignore their PC incantations and to continue our binge buying of conventional internal-combustion engines will, according to these all-knowing scribes and electronic chatterers, doom civilization to a dark age embroiled in a heat-soaked Sahara.

Yeah, maybe. Then again, maybe not. Yes, we understand the feds are giving a one-time $2000 tax credit to hybrid owners, and 16 states are offering come-on tax breaks ($1500 in Oregon, $4173 in Colorado), inspection exemptions, and single-driver use of HOV lanes as incentives.

Moreover, the hybrids being sold by Toyota, Lexus, Honda, Ford, and, soon, Chevrolet are all reasonably priced. Example: The hot-selling Toyota Prius—with a three-month waiting list in most markets—can be purchased for under $22,000 loaded (although most experts estimate that Toyota is taking a $2000 hit on each sale). The Pious—oops—Prius costs about $5000 more to manufacture than a conventional Corolla and retails for about three-grand extra.

Now let's jump ugly about the whole situation and talk a little reality. The guys at Edmunds.com, who run hard numbers about the car business as well as anyone, estimate that a Prius owner would have to drive at least 66,500 miles annually for five straight years, or gasoline would have to soar to 10 bucks a gallon, to equal the cost of operating a cheaper, conventional Corolla.

Then we have the battery pack, that heavy lump of nickel-metal hydride juice boxes that presumably improve fuel efficiency (but not that much, according to our road tests). Although the warranties are for eight years or 100,000 miles, battery replacement will cost $5300 for the Toyota and Lexus hybrids, and the Ford Escape replacements run a whopping $7200.

Moreover, the industry types aren't talking about total battery life. Will they actually last 100,000 miles? How will this affect resale value? Will the systems stay at full efficiency, or will they slowly drain power as they age or operate under heavy use? These are questions that remain to be answered, understanding that storage batteries, be they dry cells in your flashlight or exotic Ni-MHs, all have finite lives and store less power with age.

And now comes word that the computer brain inside the gas-electric grids in some Priuses is tending to go nuts. This causes instant blackout stalling at either 35 mph or 65 mph—the latter possibly in the fast lane of an interstate where 50-ton semis running 90 mph can crush compacts like beer cans.

This brings up an undiscussed issue: At some point, all these hybrid batteries will die and have to be disposed of somewhere, somehow. These are hardly biodegradable items like spoiled vegetables. They are in fact self-contained toxic waste dumps. How and where millions of these poisonous boxes will be deposited in the new hybrid nirvana has yet to be considered, much less resolved.

And speaking of the environmental component (the glamour issue centered on the brave new world of hybrids), a number of EMT and fire crews have announced that they will refuse to rescue victims trapped in such vehicles, openly fearing electrocution or fatal acid burns.

As with the now-defunct electric-car miracle, where it was quickly realized that the national power grid could not energize millions of vehicles without massive expansion of horrors—nuclear generation—the dark side of the hybrid miracle is now beginning to surface.

Says a dealer friend whose immense franchise network includes several brands offering hybrids: "There is no advantage to owning a hybrid in terms of fuel mileage when the extra cost of the vehicle is added in. Period. Do the math. This is a feel-good purchase. Hybrids are a statement about the environment, and they simply do not square with economic reality.

"The truth is, although the Prius is selling like mad, hybrid Honda Accords and Civics are backed up on dealer lots. Why? Because they look like conventional Hondas, whereas the Prius has unique styling. It has an iconic status among the Greenies. Like it or not, that's real life."

Until hybrids become economically feasible in terms of cost, reliability, and valid fuel savings and make real sense regarding performance and disposability, we're going to be driving conventional internal-combustion-powered vehicles—either gas or diesel —until rogue asteroids clean us all out.

"The truth is, although the Prius is selling like mad, hybrid Honda Accords and Civics are backed up on dealer lots. Why? Because they look like conventional Hondas, whereas the Prius has unique styling. It has an iconic status among the Greenies. Like it or not, that's real life."

Let's not let real life intrude, here. Even though Yates has forgotten more about motor vehicle technology than Al Gore will ever know.

Whaddya know, no silver bullets slow global warming. Shocking!

Yep, I mentioned it back on the 13th:

And then it gets worse. A recent article in Central Connecticut State University's publication notes that the Toyota Prius hybrid car is the source of some of the worst pollution in North America. Yes, that emblem of the greeniacs, that badge that shows how much they "care" is actually among the worst products one can buy, in terms of deleterious effect on the environment.

I saw a Prius on I-405 last summer. The vanity plate read, "I CARE".
I found myself wanting to meet that person who would so want to advertise their elevated state of caring.
To ask her to describe what she imagines people think when they see her choice of car and read her vanity plate.
Does anyone know her?
I think it was also a dark green Prius with the plate "I CARE"

Quick, more organic kool-aid.

Was that one of the PR's put out by GM?
Let's address the issues. Mining, no matter the element, is a disgrace in our hemisphere, think of all the stainless steel you see, that is Nichol. The laws are non-existent, and mining interests get away with murder, literally. Most hybrid drivers drive very Conservative as I have observed. With conservative driving the 60 mpg isn't far off the mark. Length of service depends on too many factors. Best way to tell is call wrecking yards for parts for both. The batteries are recyclable. Cost to build? The manufacture will never tell, that is one big secret. Drive your gas guzzler and be smug, but hybrids are going to be here a loooong time.
Disclaimer: I drive a 12 year old Chrysler product.

My, let's not have too much critical thinking concerning GREEN. Do GREEN first, then analyse the benefits/negatives afterward. Each decade, generation we keep on doing the criteral thinking as an afterthought.

Remember the solar push of the 70's and all the gadgets. Simple, thoughtful, reality based design, devices gave us the most benefits, and not the toys. But some felt better with the toys because the State of Oregreen gave up to $10,000 dollars of solar toy credits even back in the 70s. That is a lot of today dollars.

calling something "green" doesn't make it green. so, the Prius not being "green" doesn't mean anything except a marketing slogan got outed for being superficial.

imagine that.

i've got bad news, everyone--NO car is "green". no matter what the fuel source. to make a car these days requires non-renewable resource extraction. enormous factories. vast amounts of power.

now--got an alternative, Prius-haters?


and remember, Priuses are to true ecological sustainability what Fox is to journalism.

or The Paper Chase was to the legal profession.

man, i loved that show.

I'm not defending the prius or any particular technological solution. But it's hard to deny that recovering braking energy for future use - as opposed to throwing it away as waste heat - is a fundamentally good idea.

The good news about the hybrid fad is that it's really got people thinking about various ways to do this.

Sorry to interrupt the anti-Prius hate-a-thon, but it is interesting to examine the underlying data that makes up the study. For example, they estimate the life of the Prius to be 109,000 miles--where this figure comes from, nobody knows. When you just randomly assign ("make up," as the kids say) a number that low, then, yeah, the per mile costs over the life of the car will look bad.

I'm guessing this "study" has about as much validity as one of those "cigarettes: good for you!" studies underwritten by the caring folks at Philip Morris in the 1950s.

green, schmeen.

In my book, with hybrids it is not about being green. It's about miles per gallon of gasoline.

Right now we as a country are willing to send our young men and women to their deaths to protect our supply of oil. And don't give me the sanctimonious arguments regarding the Iraq War that say we are there to give Iraqis "freedom" or a war on terror. Yeah, if that was our true motivation we would have already been deep into both Sudan and Somalia by now.

I ask you this: how many dead soldiers and civilians per mile does the Hummer require as compared to a hybrid?

Dave J., how many miles have you logged on your Prius? :-)

There is alot more to consider than just the life of the battery. The estimated lifespan of the battery (per the manufacturer) is about 180,000 miles. However, what about batteries damaged in accidents? And even if the batteries aren't damaged, there will be many cars damaged in accidents that will be declared 'totalled' and even if there is no direct damage to the battery, who is going to want an aftermarket battery with 50-70 thousand miles on it?

butch And even if the batteries aren't damaged, there will be many cars damaged in accidents that will be declared 'totalled' and even if there is no direct damage to the battery, who is going to want an aftermarket battery with 50-70 thousand miles on it?
JK: Enter a new factor: THE PRICE!! If it is cheap, in relation to it's vlaue, people will buy and benefit from it. If it is too expensive people will not buy. At some price, in between, the seller and buyer will both agree that they can each benefit and a sale is made.

Basic econ.

Thanks
JK

Another thing to consider when talking about the "Hummer" is that the civilian "status-symbol" vehicles are powered by a gasoline engine, unlike the HMMWV. The HMMWV uses either a 6.2 liter or 6.5 liter Detroit Diesel. The mpgs are like night and day...it makes no sense whatsoever to power a medium duty truck with a gas motor that gets 5-6 miles per gallon, when the Diesel gets about 15. That same engine in a Suburban is capable of 23-26mpg...not bad for a big heavy truck.

These engines will last 300,000-500,000 miles in between rebuilds, if they are cared for properly.

I know, I own a van-bus conversion with the same motor, and do all the maintenance on it myself. Navistar, IH and Cummins Diesel motors last even longer.

What with the same clean-burning Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel fuel used in Europe for about the last 15 years now mandated by law in the States, as of this year, we are going to see more and more Diesel cars that are capable of 40mpg or more. Some of these cars are even made by American companies, but we haven't seen them here yet because of the old fuel.

Then, there is relatively young Biodiesel industry. The newest research on that front indicates that huge algae farms produce fuel much, much more efficiently than any other Bio process currently in use.

The latest refinement of the Fischer-Tropsch coal-fuel extraction process produces much cleaner burning fuel as well, and we have literally hundreds of years worth of fuel left in the United States, by using the refined F-T method. The problem there, of course, is getting the coal out of the ground, but I have a feeling that as conventional oil reserves continue to dwindle and the absurd Iraq war spills over into Iran, that we will figure out ways to get it out, quick.

That's the future, boys and girls, and this technology is in it's infancy still. The internal combustion engine, personal automobile and truck are here to stay, and very bright minds are seriously re-thinking just how to fuel them at this very moment.

If you want to be green, don't drive. It's simple

I wouldn't own one yet, but hybrids are pretty cool from a technological standpoint. Still waiting for major breakthroughs in battery technology, but the reduced emissions and fuel consumption represent at least a fair trade off ecologically. Developing hybrid vehicles is a step in the right direction and my hats off to the early adopters. Just don't tell that me I have to drive one.

The current urban legend I'm hearing is that if your hybrid catches fire, the firefighters are going to let it burn rather than deal with the hazards of the batteries.

The linked article criticizing the Prius seems overblown; there are some factual errors in it that anyone can recognize, which makes one wonder about some of the rest. It has been pretty clear since hybrids first hit the market (a) that EPA ratings are even less reliable for hybrids than for internal combustion cars, and (b) that fuel consumption savings don't repay the premium cost (unless there is some substantial recovery in resale value). Still, there are benefits in reduced fuel consumption and emissions. Not only is regenerative braking a good idea, as Alan Dewitt points out, so is shutting off the gasoline engine when it is not working.

My problems are the nickel mining, and the huge amounts of energy that the manufacturing process seems to take. Even giving the Prius the benefit of the doubt on mileage measurements, those are real concerns.

jim karlok: 'factory warranty nullified' ... you want to put a used battery in your car at hundreds of dollars in labor costs with no guarantee how long it will last, go ahead.

Right. So the article (if it is to be believed on this point) quantifies the energy consumption of the Prius (build and drive over its lifetime) at $325,000 and the Hummer at $585,000. That doesn't seem surprising. The nickel mining in Ontario, and associated environmental damage, seem like red herrings here, and the shipping of materials and components hither and yon -- in ships -- pretty much the way things are in manufacturing. I must be missing the point.

nickel mining in Ontario, and associated environmental damage, seem like red herrings

Or dead herrings?

How can you just dismiss that with a wave of the hand?

The useful life of a vehicle includes multiple owners.

Now you know why I call it the Toyota Pious.

Cabbie:

Which B/S artist told you a gas Hummer gets 5-6 MPH?

Phish-Tosh, the Greenies know best. They don't let facts get in the way of their religion. Gasoline bad, anything else good. They would like to do away with cars altogether, but then they couldn't be overly smug. Facts be damned, global warming is caused by man and if you care you drive a Prius - THAT'S the bottom line. If you don't convert and conform, the high priest Al Gore will be sent to your house and you'll have to listen to him bore you to death with his mis-information (by the way, HE invented the internet ... the man is GOD).


This is what is so sad about the hi-jacked green movement. The green roof on the Portland building, at a cost of $780,000 to the General fund when replacing the built-up would have cost $60,000, and the other $700,000 could have been used to fix leaking roofs on numerous parks buildings, like the one at thier maintenance yard that leaks all over thier employees.

Most of these batteries also contain a large amount of lead. The lead worries me more since we really don't have a good way to dispose of it besides storage.

Put lead in a landfill and it leeches right into the water supply since it is a pretty mobile ion.

Funny, though, they made the electronics industry clean out all the lead and one battery is worth about 100 computers worth of lead.

I can hardly wait to see the impact of bio-fuels on the environment.

"How can you just dismiss that with a wave of the hand?"

Surely that is no more difficult than imputing selfish, anti-social motives and sentiments to people concerned about the environment.

Machinery requires minerals; minerals have to be mined. Mining can be done in harmful ways, or less so. The link between environmental damage in Canada and the Prius is weak. I read Demorro's article several times. All he's got is adjectives. You'd have to be biased to be taken in by that sort of thing.

The hot-selling Toyota Prius—with a three-month waiting list in most markets—can be purchased for under $22,000

Good luck with that. I havent seen used ones that low. And dealer markup on new ones is another $5-$7k most places. When I looked at them last summer, the sticker price was $29k. I can get a Yaris for $12k that gets the same mileage.

Another thing to consider when talking about the "Hummer" is that the civilian "status-symbol" vehicles are powered by a gasoline engine, unlike the HMMWV.

Actually, I just went to the Hummer website, and new models of the civilian H1 are powered by a 6.6L Duramax Turbo Diesel.

Sometimes, Jon, you have to actually read the stuff that's there on the web. The "official" Hummer website discloses that the H1 civilian model went out of production nearly a year ago.

every greenie i know is fully aware that the benefits of buying a hybrid is the investment in the technology, not the car itself.

they are oddly fun to drive. quiet and very differently powered. you get obsessed with charging the battery and getting great mileage.

You're right Allan. I guess they need to fix their website. I went straight to the H1 Alpha specs & pricing section at Hummer.com.
I didnt read the "breaking news" section until after your post.

We just bought a Prius for $22K; they are really coming down in price right now, with plenty available on the lots. Add in the $3075 we'll be able to take in tax breaks, and that's pretty darn reasonable.

And yes, AAA, Al Gore =is= God. Just like everyone else.

"Put lead in a landfill and it leeches right into the water supply"
Really? How's that?
Do you get this from some Greenie myth center?
I mean, sure I suppose in some remote outdated, non compliant landfill some lead may find it's way to some water supply.
But get real man.
The strict requirements on today's land fills in the US are such that they must be lined and capped to prevent both permeation and leaching.
Show me the active landfill where any of it's contents finds any water supplies and I'll buy you dinner at El Goucho.
Oops, how about Sweet Tomatoes?

Jon: It's like everything else on the web -- you have to guess which part is wrong. But what the heck -- maybe that's why the H1 page says "build your own". ;P

NorthwestT : If you want to be green, don't drive. It's simple
JK: Yep - here is another green suggesting that we go back to the middle ages to protect the envoiro. (I know he wasn’t suggesting that we use transit instead because transit uses more energy and costs more than new small cars.)

I am constantly amazed by the number of Portlanders that think we should go back to the lifestyle of the 1900's. Forgetting that most of us would not survive to age 30 because of diseases the we don’t even remember anymore. You heated with wood or coal, both major polluters. And traveled by horse - I guarantee a horse’s tail pipe is far dirtier than any modern car. And whatever you can attribute to car exhaust, at least it does not spread TB and other contagious diseases. BTW did you know that the pedestrian death rate was far higher back then than now? (I’ve got the numbers, but haven’t put them up yet) Oh, also the death rate for long distance travel was much higher then than now.

butch 'factory warranty nullified' ... you want to put a used battery in your car at hundreds of dollars in labor costs with no guarantee how long it will last, go ahead.
JK: It is an economic decision. Would you risk a couple hundred dollar labor bill to save a few thousand on the battery? You also neglect the possibility of testing the battery and any warranty that may be available (perhaps at extra cost).

You are making the classic error of assuming that man is not capable of coming up with new ideas and solving problems. That is the mistake behind past fallacies like “the Population Bomb”, “Limits to Growth” and numerous books on peak oil. In all cases the authors are not smart enough to figure out a solution, so they declare that there is none and go off and write books saying that the earth is doomed. Some probably made a lot of money on their pet problem, like Al is doing now with his green mutual fund.

NorthwestT : Most of these batteries also contain a large amount of lead. The lead worries me more since we really don't have a good way to dispose of it besides storage.
JK: Two corrections:
1. Lead-acid batteries are recycled, not dumped and not stored - lead is dam useful. There is even a deposit on lead-acid batteries.
2. Hybrid cars do not use lead-acid batteries because Nickle-metal-hydride batteries store more energy per pound. Any lead would be in the form of solder and probably has been replaced by non-lead solders.

NorthwestT : Funny, though, they made the electronics industry clean out all the lead and one battery is worth about 100 computers worth of lead.
JK: Got a source for this claim?

Thanks
JK

again, actually most greenies i know consider a lifestyle of mixed walking/biking/train/bus/SOV to be more futuristic then anything else. they are super interested in emerging technologies, and believe in using market forces and economic growth to move us forward. i've never actually heard someone say that the 1900's were better. but i hear A LOT about the 21st century and starting businesses and making money.

The study is flawed in one other respect that no one has brought up yet: The transportation premium for all of the Prius' raw materials is naturally at a disadvantage compared to other vehicles, because there are no North American plants doing the final assembly at this time. I presume this is because of the relatively low volume for the particular model, which is bound to increase.

Toyota has 14 North American plants that could be potentially turned on for the Prius, and in fact the Camry was just brought on line in Kentucky late last year. I would contend that if there is to be a fair comparison, this has to be included in the accounting.

The fact that the HV is also low volume, isn't a defense here. Both the production and principal market of the HV is in North America.

Allan said: The nickel mining in Ontario, and associated environmental damage, seem like red herrings here, and the shipping of materials and components hither and yon -- in ships -- pretty much the way things are in manufacturing. I must be missing the point.

Jack said: "How can you just dismiss that with a wave of the hand?"

Allan replies: Surely that is no more difficult than imputing selfish, anti-social motives and sentiments to people concerned about the environment.

I love Allan's "answer". First, he justifies his blithe dismissal of pollution by doing exactly what he seems to decry in others with whom he disagrees - namely, imputing base motivations to them. They did it first so it's OK for me! AND it explains or excuses my lack of concern for pollution because... it just does.

Allan has attempted to poison the well for those who dare question the "sanctity" of the Prius. Challenging those whose fact-unfettered smugness is reinforced by their ownership of one, is tantamount to calling them selfish and anti-social. It is simply not permitted.

The linked article criticizing the Prius seems overblown; there are some factual errors in it that anyone can recognize, which makes one wonder about some of the rest.

Please cite those easily recognizable "factual errors" to which you refer, O sage. That kind of baseless doubt-casting is a wonderful demagoguery but won't work here except with the true believers.

The only thing you say thats make sense, Allan, is: "I must be missing the point.". Even this is misleading. You don't miss the point - you ignore the point - AND the context. For one thing, the point has nothing directly to do with Hummers. THAT'S a red herring. The point is that Priuses are not what most people ASSUME they are - which is WAY greener than other vehicles. The usual semantic BS about green, greener, greenest from you, ecohuman and Dave J. are more distractions. "The link between environmental damage in Canada and the Prius..." isn't what's "weak" - calling those with whom one disagrees "haters" is what's weak. How about staying on point and in context?

The "good ideas" of regenerative braking and turning the IC engine off when stopped and when starting out at low speeds are all there is to this class of hybrid. Without those two features, there's nothing that sets the Prius, or any other current hybrid, apart from IC-only powered vehicles. The NiMH battery is the problem and that battery is necessary for those features to contribute ANYTHING. So dismissing the battery as a pollution source is not just disingenuous, it's ridiculous.

So are your attempts to obfuscate, distract, dissemble and pontificate (but, hey, I love ya, babe).

A couple other little points: 1) The presence of adjectives in Demorro's article does not preclude the presence of facts, however inconvenient, does it, now? 2) Do YOU drive a Prius? - I thought that you did.

I've actually read a good portion of the couple hundred page "Dust to Dust" report referenced in the article and found it to be severely flawed. A variety of factors contributed to the poor rating of the Prius that I did not consider fair including:

1) Prius R&D has not had a chance to be spread over enough vehicles because it is relatively new.

2) Prius owners tend to live in cities, own other vehicles, and drive fewer miles per year (which partially explains the low 109,000 mile life assumption) and the high energy per mile rating.

The first factor has nothing to do with the marginal impact from buying one more Prius versus buying one more Hummer. The second factor is irrelevant because it doesn't reflect the vehicle but merely the person that tends to drive it.

That being said, the hybrid system is beneficial for stop and go driving but the battery just adds additional weight for highway driving. Also, everything I've read and everyone I've talked to said the EPA mileage numbers were well above what was observed. My guess is that less expensive Scion XAs or XBs (also made by Toyota) are more economical and more environmentally friendy. Unfortunately they aren't the eco status symbols that many Prius buyers are looking for.

I suppose that I could go off into all these anecdotes about the gas vs. diesel Hummers, but then there is this handy invention called Google. YMMV, to coin a phrase, and skepticism is very healthy vis a vis the internet...

Here :

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=hummer+mpg+diesel&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

NorthwestT : Funny, though, they made the electronics industry clean out all the lead and one battery is worth about 100 computers worth of lead.
JK: Got a source for this claim?

No source, just if you look at every electronic component with a CE mark, to get that mark it need to be lead-free. Old electronics were getting dumped or let to sit and then they would leech lead into the environment.

Solder is tin-lead mix and it actually takes about 10,000 (or a lot) computers worth of lead solder joints to equal one car battery worth of lead, but I did forget about the re-cycling batteries. So I was wrong.

"I mean, sure I suppose in some remote outdated, non compliant landfill some lead may find it's way to some water supply. But get real man."

OK, Oregon HB 2622 is going to try and outlaw dumping old electronics in landfills for this reason. You just can make a 100% guaranteed impervious landfill liner.

yea, what is this leak proof liner? i am sure that everyone in the construction trade would LOVE to get a hold of it. no more leaking basements! no more leaking roofs!

if only the landfill people would let us in on their magic liner secrets.

I mentioned this article to a Prius owner at work, and he insisted it was put out by a front for the oil companies. So I did what any self-respecting PC user would do. I searched google. Here's a link:

http://www.myninjaplease.com/green/?cat=7

Here's the relevant information:


The main evidence he references are the now debunked CNW research article that came out in 2006, that contained plenty of factual errors in their analysis of the manufacturing costs of the nickel metal hydride batteries and information about nickel producer Inco. The information on Inco is just plain outdated and wrong. Yes, Inco did a lot of probably irreparable damage to the area around Sudbury, Ontario over the many decades, and I will not defend them. The 1,247 foot tall Inco superstack definitely spread acid rain far and wide over eastern Canada for nearly two decades. However a major pollution control program was put in place in the late 1980s and since 1994, the stack has emitted almost nothing but water vapor. Most of the Ontario lakes that were damaged by acid rain in the 1970s and 1980s have since recovered and are now doing well.

Finally, the author references the changes to the EPA fuel economy ratings this year, and the fact that Prius ratings fall about 25 percent from 2007 to 2008. What he neglects to mention is that every vehicle for sale in the United States suffers a significant drop in the sticker fuel efficiency, including his precious Hummer. Admittedly, hybrids are not a panacea for our problems and they create problems of their own. But this article is just silly.
>>>>

What I find most incredible about all this is how eager most of the posters here were to jump on the bandwagon and accept the article as true without any questioning. The author of the piece is a f***ing college student, people! His piece is an editorial, not a factual article by any stretch.

Here's another link with some debunking information:

http://www.newjerseygasprices.com/Forum_MSG.aspx?master=1&category=1056&topic=254742&page_no=1

It's not just a liner george.
The fill and land above it must be capped and disallowed from having permeability. There is nothing to wash or force containment through the liner or into the water supplies.
Many are also domed or built upon without any possibility of disruption of the contents.
And they are monitored for methane etc.


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In Vino Veritas

Louis Jadot, Pouilly-Fuissé 2011
Trader Joe's, Grower's Reserve Pinot Noir 2012
Zenato, Lugana San Benedetto 2012
Vintjs, Cabernet 2010
14 Hands, Hot to Trot White 2012
Rainstorm, Oregon Pinot Gris 2012
Silver Palm, North Coast Cabernet 2011
Andrew Rich, Gewurtztraminer 2008
Rodney Strong, Charlotte's Home Sauvignon Blanc 2012
Canoe Ridge, Pinot Gris, Expedition 2012
Edmunds St. John, Bone-Jolly Gamay Noir Rose 2012
Dark Horse, Big Red Blend No. 01A
Elk Cove, Pinot Noir Rose 2012
Fletcher, Shiraz 2010
Picollo, Gavi 2011
Domaine Eugene Carrel, Jongieux 2012
Eyrie, Pinot Blanc 2010
Atticus, Pinot Noir 2010
Walter Scott, Pinot Noir, Holstein 2011
Shingleback, Cabernet, Davey Estate 2010
Coppola, Sofia Rose 2012
Joel Gott, 851 Cabernet 2010
Pol Roget Reserve Sparkling Wine
Mount Eden Chardonnay, Santa Cruz Mountains 2009
Rombauer Chardonnay, Napa Valley 2011
Beringer, Chardonnay, Napa Reserve 2011
Kim Crawford, Sauvignon Blanc 2011
Schloss Vollrads, Spaetlese Rheingau 2010
Belle Glos, Pinot Noir, Clark & Telephone 2010
WillaKenzie, Pinot Noir, Estate Cuvee 2010
Blackbird Vineyards, Arise, Red 2010
Chauteau de Beaucastel, Chateauneuf-du-Pape 2005
Northstar, Merlot 2008
Feather, Cabernet 2007
Silver Oak, Cabernet, Alexander Valley 2002
Silver Oak, Cabernet, Napa Valley 2002
Trader Joe's, Chardonnay, Grower's Reserve 2012
Silver Palm, Cabernet, North Coast 2010
Shingleback, Cabernet, Davey Estate 2010
E. Guigal, Cotes du Rhone 2009
Santa Margherita, Pinot Grigio 2011
Alamos, Cabernet 2011
Cousino Macul, Cabernet, Anitguas Reservas 2009
Dreaming Tree Cabernet 2010
1967, Toscana 2009
Charamba, Douro 2008
Horse Heaven Hills, Cabernet 2010
Lorelle, Horse Heaven Hills Pinot Grigio 2011
Avignonesi, Montepulciano 2004
Lorelle, Willamette Valley Pinot Noir 2011
Villa Antinori, Toscana 2007
Mercedes Eguren, Cabernet Sauvignon 2009
Lorelle, Columbia Valley Cabernet 2011
Purple Moon, Merlot 2011
Purple Moon, Chardonnnay 2011
Horse Heaven Hills, Cabernet 2010
Lorelle, Horse Heaven Hills Pinot Grigio 2011
Avignonesi, Montepulciano 2004
Lorelle, Willamette Valley Pinot Noir 2011
Villa Antinori, Toscana 2007
Mercedes Eguren, Cabernet Sauvignon 2009
Lorelle, Columbia Valley Cabernet 2011
Purple Moon, Merlot 2011
Purple Moon, Chardonnnay 2011
Abacela, Vintner's Blend No. 12
Opula Red Blend 2010
Liberte, Pinot Noir 2010
Chateau Ste. Michelle, Indian Wells Red Blend 2010
Woodbridge, Chardonnay 2011
King Estate, Pinot Noir 2011
Famille Perrin, Cotes du Rhone Villages 2010
Columbia Crest, Les Chevaux Red 2010
14 Hands, Hot to Trot White Blend
Familia Bianchi, Malbec 2009
Terrapin Cellars, Pinot Gris 2011
Columbia Crest, Walter Clore Private Reserve 2009
Campo Viejo, Rioja, Termpranillo 2010
Ravenswood, Cabernet Sauvignon 2009
Quinta das Amoras, Vinho Tinto 2010
Waterbrook, Reserve Merlot 2009
Lorelle, Horse Heaven Hills, Pinot Grigio 2011
Tarantas, Rose
Chateau Lajarre, Bordeaux 2009
La Vielle Ferme, Rose 2011
Benvolio, Pinot Grigio 2011
Nobilo Icon, Pinot Noir 2009
Lello, Douro Tinto 2009
Quinson Fils, Cotes de Provence Rose 2011
Anindor, Pinot Gris 2010
Buenas Ondas, Syrah Rose 2010
Les Fiefs d'Anglars, Malbec 2009
14 Hands, Pinot Gris 2011
Conundrum 2012
Condes de Albarei, Albariño 2011
Columbia Crest, Walter Clore Private Reserve 2007
Penelope Sanchez, Garnacha Syrah 2010
Canoe Ridge, Merlot 2007
Atalaya do Mar, Godello 2010
Vega Montan, Mencia
Benvolio, Pinot Grigio
Nobilo Icon, Pinot Noir, Marlborough 2009

The Occasional Book

Maria Dermoȗt - The Ten Thousand Things
William Faulkner - As I Lay Dying
Markus Zusak - The Book Thief
Christopher Buckley - Thank You for Smoking
William Shakespeare - Othello
Joseph Conrad - Heart of Darkness
Bill Bryson - A Short History of Nearly Everything
Cheryl Strayed - Tiny Beautiful Things
Sara Varon - Bake Sale
Stephen King - 11/22/63
Paul Goldstein - Errors and Omissions
Mark Twain - A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court
Steve Martin - Born Standing Up: A Comic's Life
Beverly Cleary - A Girl from Yamhill, a Memoir
Kent Haruf - Plainsong
Hope Larson - A Wrinkle in Time, the Graphic Novel
Rudyard Kipling - Kim
Peter Ames Carlin - Bruce
Fran Cannon Slayton - When the Whistle Blows
Neil Young - Waging Heavy Peace
Mark Bego - Aretha Franklin, the Queen of Soul (2012 ed.)
Jenny Lawson - Let's Pretend This Never Happened
J.D. Salinger - Franny and Zooey
Charles Dickens - A Christmas Carol
Timothy Egan - The Big Burn
Deborah Eisenberg - Transactions in a Foreign Currency
Kurt Vonnegut Jr. - Slaughterhouse Five
Kathryn Lance - Pandora's Genes
Cheryl Strayed - Wild
Fyodor Dostoyevsky - The Brothers Karamazov
Jack London - The House of Pride, and Other Tales of Hawaii
Jack Walker - The Extraordinary Rendition of Vincent Dellamaria
Colum McCann - Let the Great World Spin
Niccolò Machiavelli - The Prince
Harper Lee - To Kill a Mockingbird
Emma McLaughlin & Nicola Kraus - The Nanny Diaries
Brian Selznick - The Invention of Hugo Cabret
Sharon Creech - Walk Two Moons
Keith Richards - Life
F. Sionil Jose - Dusk
Natalie Babbitt - Tuck Everlasting
Justin Halpern - S#*t My Dad Says
Mark Herrmann - The Curmudgeon's Guide to Practicing Law
Barry Glassner - The Gospel of Food
Phil Stanford - The Peyton-Allan Files
Jesse Katz - The Opposite Field
Evelyn Waugh - Brideshead Revisited
J.K. Rowling - Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone
David Sedaris - Holidays on Ice
Donald Miller - A Million Miles in a Thousand Years
Mitch Albom - Have a Little Faith
C.S. Lewis - The Magician's Nephew
F. Scott Fitzgerald - The Great Gatsby
William Shakespeare - A Midsummer Night's Dream
Ivan Doig - Bucking the Sun
Penda Diakité - I Lost My Tooth in Africa
Grace Lin - The Year of the Rat
Oscar Hijuelos - Mr. Ives' Christmas
Madeline L'Engle - A Wrinkle in Time
Steven Hart - The Last Three Miles
David Sedaris - Me Talk Pretty One Day
Karen Armstrong - The Spiral Staircase
Charles Larson - The Portland Murders
Adrian Wojnarowski - The Miracle of St. Anthony
William H. Colby - Long Goodbye
Steven D. Stark - Meet the Beatles
Phil Stanford - Portland Confidential
Rick Moody - Garden State
Jonathan Schwartz - All in Good Time
David Sedaris - Dress Your Family in Corduroy and Denim
Anthony Holden - Big Deal
Robert J. Spitzer - The Spirit of Leadership
James McManus - Positively Fifth Street
Jeff Noon - Vurt

Road Work

Miles run year to date: 111
At this date last year: 21
Total run in 2013: 257
In 2012: 129
In 2011: 113
In 2010: 125
In 2009: 67
In 2008: 28
In 2007: 113
In 2006: 100
In 2005: 149
In 2004: 204
In 2003: 269


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