Jack, I thought you knew by now -- Lars doesn't give an damn about those "freeloaders". Hey, unless it has to do with illegal aliens, don't expect Lars to say anything negative about the President's policies. Talk about a single issue voter.

Your post just shows how screwed up and bought and paid for the whole political system is whether it be the R's or the D's, this whole business of taxes in a democracy was supposed to be a way for folks to unite to collaboratively fund public works and services that the people wanted by pooling thier resouces and paying a fair share based on net worth and benefit. It has been so bastardized, and the left and right wing zealots are just making it impossible to have an intelligent converstation and people in government who refuse to play that sick game and pander to the special interests are given the bums rush, while others are so blatently being rewarded for thier collusion. What I want to know is how we start an intelligent conversation. PBA(Portland Business Alliance) and the Poor both have valid points and interests that need to be represented for this City to regain its charm and livability, yet both are floundering right now.

I appreciated Jim Hill's tears on the news, I don't know the man well enough to know whether they are crocidile or real, but I also want to cry when I think too much about the current state of affairs in Oregon.

amen Swimmer (and Jack)!

And the alternatives to GW are?

I know Portlandites are so busy they can't venture outside of the City limits to learn what the Illegal Aliens are all about, so why not check out Marion and Washington counties jail rosters and gain an idea of what's going on and the names of the evil doers.

http://pswebpub.co.washington.or.us/jms/incustody/

http://sheriff.co.marion.or.us/jail.asp

Abd as the big O pointed out in the editorial there are going to be a lot of Republicans outside of the metro area in the timber counties etc. who are going to get it right in the shorts with this budget.

So to the repubs "you voted for him, now suck it up".

And you know what, if I worked for Weiden and Kennedy and am basking in getting another fat account (with bonuses and goodies to follow)I'm going to raise my next latte to the lumbermen and the farmers and shout "god, guns, gays and guts....hahahahahaha"

I certainly can't speak for Lars, just for myself as a fiscal conservative. I've heard Lars say much the same thing, however:

This President is hardly a fiscal hawk, and I have been highly critical of his budget priorities. He has regularly played the same old constituency-buying game that has infected federal politics for decades, no matter which party is in control.

Having Republican control of both houses and the executive branch has revealed a painful reality: a lot of Republican congressmen are not fiscal conservatives.

They make the morally bankrupt pitch to their voters: "elect me to congress and I will use the power of that office to take money from another American and give it to you."

GW Bush has done nothing to stop this behavior in five years in office, and at times he has led the looting.

I believe it is one of the major failures of his administration, which I generally support. The current funding in his budget for more light rail in Portland is just another illustration of this malaise.

I know you want to make Lars look bad, Jack, but I've heard him criticize Bush's reckless spending many times. He's been neither silent nor hypocritical on this issue.

Where was Earl? With all this transit funding coming into the metro area, why wouldn't the feds pick up the cost-overrun for the Tram [rim shot]?

Don't bother Lars right now. He's down hiding roses and candy around Pioneer Square to protest the War on Valentine's Day.

http://www.larslarson.com/HotTopics/131847.aspx
Lar's take on The Tram Travesty (drum roll, rim shot, bike horn).

Westside Rail:

They expect 3,000 riders per day. Assuming a $2 per-trip fare, it will take 50 years for the ridership to pay for the project. Of course, suggesting that ridership pay for the project is beside the point, isn't it? This is being built with "other people's money." Since the fed's kicking in half for the project (and assuming it doesn't tram [rimshot] out of control), it doesn't matter how much it costs to run OR build. There's some federal tax money in it, so it must be a worthwhile project.

Does anyone out there question the utility of light rail? Or is it just me? I have never understood why putting rails in the ground was a better option than expanding roads and offering bus service that is more flexible with its timing and routes or even decentralizing transit altogether and allowing private companies to operate jitney services or rickshaws or whatever the market will bear...

Oh, from the PDC's Tram [rimshot] Report - they left out a key modfier...

4. FURTHER DELAY MOST SIGNIFICANT [POLITICAL] RISK: The tram project is too far along to stop or slow down. Delay is now the single largest risk to the final tram cost.

Don: The main two advantages rail has over bus IMO:

1) rail is FASTER. It's not stuck in traffic (except downtown, ick). But coming from the burbs, it's much, much faster than a bus or car.

2) people are AFRAID OF BUSES. It's dumb, but it's true. For some reason suburbanites are afraid to get on a bus. Many of them will not hop on a free bus from south downtown to north, but will gladly hop on MAX to go from east downtown to west.

What this means is that way more people ride MAX than would ever ride a bus. We had buses from the westside to downtown for a long time, but once westside MAX opened up, a lot more people started taking transit downtown.

Rail is faster? Someone should look into that.

No one:

I get that. My wife's the same way. I ask her, and she says "The MAX/Streetcar is cool. It's pretty." I guess that's just hard for me to get my head around. We pay through the nose for a "prettier" option. Oh, well. Keep Portland Weird.

Back to the Tram [rimshot]:

I know this has been mentioned, but I'm hoping our city commissioners are reading this and will reject the Pinnell-Busch's report for the PDC on grounds that it is completely biased in favor of completion. To wit:

1. Summary of Risks
The Portland Aerial Tram, when complete, will be a dramatic, one-of-a-kind facility that will
become a Portland landmark – easily overshadowing its earlier history of budget and schedule
problems. {are you kidding me?! But it continues...}

It is also a difficult public works project to build and has some exposure to risk, which
may increase construction duration and costs. {Like the fact that it's being built on a hill that will slide in an earthquake?} Minimizing these risks is contingent on full
implementation of the recommendations below.
{here's the kicker} The project is too far along now to stop or even slow down, as the biggest risk for increased
cost is delay. In fact, a moderate acceleration effort may be possible, which could begin as soon as the proposed changes outlined below are in place and a clear picture is available of how best to reduce the remaining cost and time.

Are they just angling to get the project management contract from the city, since the city has proven incapable of managing this multi-million-dollar venture?

IMO, it's not that people are afraid of the bus, it's that it's much more difficult to determine a bus route than a rail route. With rail, you know where you're going, and you're fairly certain when you'll get there. With bus, not so much.

That said, I used to live in Northern Virginia and commute into DC, and in the morning the bus was packed with professionals. Why? Because it was cheaper and faster than driving.

"They expect 3,000 riders per day. Assuming a $2 per-trip fare, it will take 50 years for the ridership to pay for the project"

How long will it take "the drivership" to pay back the cost for construction of I-5? Or the renovation of the Hawthorne Bridge? Or any of the billions (trillions?) spent on road building?

Why do people expect light rail to pay for itself? Nobody expects that of roads. Part of what our government does with our money is make it easier for us to get around. It's called "infrastructure."

I am as excited for the war against cheap lettuce as I am for the war against the iron horse!

Light rail is faster than driving in your dreams. I did a paper on it for a class last spring, and for example on the eastside, actual transit time for MAX from Gresham to downtown was 49 minutes or an average speed of 14.5 mph, and was comparable to a non-express bus route, while car speed on the Banfield during the same years was 27 mph (Oregon Transportation Institute).

Apples to oranges. You need to factor in the time spent parking the car, just as the train's (or bus's) time includes the stops you don't use. The main real, objective advantage of rail, which is noted above, is the graphics provided by the steel ribbons. You can see where it goes. The subjective one is interesting: if people like it better, they'll use it more. Maybe that makes it worth the extra cost. Rail makes a city more interesting. You can't say that about a bus.

Yes....we like our cars....that's why we use them.

And "Part of what our government does with our money is make it easier for us to get around. It's called "infrastructure."....this is just plain silly, Josh. Government's sinfully negligent failure to maintain and improve our roads and highway infrastructure makes it more difficult for us to get around...damn near impossible. And, once we've overbuilt the streetcars and light rail, the government is clueless as to how to collect fares or enforce the fare policy.

Gawd help us all! The loonies are runnin' the nervous hospital.

Car vs. Bus vs. Max: In my commute into town, I have both driven and taken the bus for years. Public transportation here always takes longer than driving in one's own car with all the stops and people getting in and out. And it can be quite inconvenent as well. What if you need to run into Fred's on the way home to pick up some things? Can't do that on public transportation. What if one of the kids gets sick at school? Can't get there quick enough via TriMet. What if you need to work a little late, but the next bus doesn't come for an hour? Yuck!

There are certain people in Portland who support public transportation and will adjust their lives to meet the TriMet schedule, and have alternate plans in the works in the event of emergencies. There's another set of people who can't afford to drive a car, and there's another set of people who simply can't make the sacrifice it takes to ride public transportation. Until we hit complete gridlock on our roads, it will be hard to influence people to get on board.

Don't worry...all of these traffic problems will be solved by the tram....

Allan L:

"Apples to oranges. You need to factor in the time spent parking the car, just as the train's (or bus's) time includes the stops you don't use."

What??? Okay, I'll factor in the 2 minutes it takes me to park the car if you factor in the 10 minutes it takes me to walk to my office from the nearest max stop. In the rain.

As far as comparing compute times go, I agree that a bus sitting in traffic sucks. But what about the idea of dedicated busways? This way you get the speed you need, without the cost of sinking rails. Another nice benefit is that when 1 bus breaks down, then ALLLLLLL the other busses behind it don't get stuck for hours, as happens with max. And if the routes ever need to change, which can never happen with rail, you can use the busways for normal traffic. Or even for bike paths, for that matter, if that sounds better to Portlanders.

Another advantage to rail is that (normally) it actually shows up at a stop when its scheduled to. I'm a daily bus rider who hates the fact that bus schedules are exceedingly unreliable. I'd love to be able to take MAX, especially during rush hour. At least then I'd know when I'm getting home.

Transit times using actual data:
I take the Red line from downtown to Parkrose. 32 minutes from the time I leave my office to being in my car at Parkrose. If I drive, it's over 40 minutes to cover the same distance. That's just the time advantage of the train.
Let's factor in how the time is spent: 40 minutes in the car is wasted. Time spent on the train is either relaxation, or beginning or finishing my workday (leading to an earlier departure from work, or an extra 50 bucks in my pocket).
Another advantage to the time on the train: in two years, the train has been late 3 times. On the freeway, the commute is over an hour at least once every other week.
Anyone that can argue car over train, hasn't compared the two recently. Unless you commute off-hours (as I did today), the train is the clear winner on time, convenience, and cost. If you calculate the commute based just on transit time, you'll always think the train is bad, but if you consider overall transit time and other variables, there's no comparison.

One needs only to wade into the local rail transit agenda up to their ankles to discover the wholesale dishonesty and unethical politics which ushers it along.
The deeper one wades the worse the stench gets.

The outright lies and peripheral nonsense used to justify it never rises to the level of fiduciary responsibility or genuine transportation planning.

Far from it. Yet, not a single elected official in sight ever speaks out in opposition to it. Not one. That alone is a fatal flaw.

In regard to the President and other local Republicans they are fiscal pigs right along with the liberal dominated planning cabal which is sentencing this region to decades of transportation chaos and across the board budgetary crisis.

Who needs President Bush, Gordon Smith, Bruce Starr, Bill Kennemer, Tom Brian and other republicans for transportation around here when they embrace all things guaranteed to waste and fail.

The high public cost and low numbers of people served by light rail makes it a fiscal crime.

The lack of positive impact on growing congestion makes it a traffic crime.

The use of it as a cloak to obscure additional public spending on high density private development makes it a budget crime.

The failure of it to increase transit use makes it a transit crime.

The failure of it to attract and spur private and compatible development makes it a planning crime.

The Washington County Commuter rail is even worse.
With 14 miles from no where, to no where, and so unneeded no buses currently serve the corridor it promises to deliver zero transportation benefit while spawning countless millions in public spending on private development along it's entire path. Most of which will be diverted from basic services property tax revenues.

No speculation necessary.

That's exactly what has happened on every one of our previous light rail lines.

Josh et al.:

I'm not necessarily opposed to light rail. In fact, I see places like New York and Chicago who have rail systems that are integral to their cities. However, we need to be honest about what it'll do and why we're doing it. I don't think it's valuable to put in, oh, say, a streetcar, with general fund money, operated by general fund money, so that PSU students and West Hills and Pearl District (and soon to be SoWhat) residents dont have to ride a bus to get around.

The Wilsonville-Beaverton commuter line at least makes some sense. As a commuter line, it runs quickly between destinations. If it were a local transit system, no one would use it to get from W-ville to B-ton because it would stop too frequently. Perhaps MAX should be more of a commuter system, with express trains to downtown that don't stop every third block during rush hour.

We just don't have skeptical enough leadership to question what goes in front of them. I believe a good leader questions EVERYthing that goes in front of him. If the answers aren't good enough, even on pet projects, they should be sent back until they are good enough. If its defensible, so be it. This tram [rimshot] wouldn't be where it is if anyone had questioned what they were seeing.

People get on Bush for not being intellectually curious. I think that fault applies to most of our leadership. They get there and put their feet up on their desks...

Larry sez:

"As far as comparing compute times go, I agree that a bus sitting in traffic sucks. But what about the idea of dedicated busways? This way you get the speed you need, without the cost of sinking rails. Another nice benefit is that when 1 bus breaks down, then ALLLLLLL the other busses behind it don't get stuck for hours, as happens with max. And if the routes ever need to change, which can never happen with rail, you can use the busways for normal traffic. Or even for bike paths, for that matter, if that sounds better to Portlanders."

The need to change routes as the urban landscape changes is exactly why the old Rose City Transit, the precursor to Tri-Met, switched from rail to rubber tired buses. First, with cabled electric power, and then to diesel, to obtain even greater versatility.

Personally, I'm very happy with MAX, even though I consider it to be a "white elephant". The reason? Had MAX not been built, my house would be overlooking the east-bound lane of the Mt. Hood Freeway, an even more expensive boondoogle.

I have found it interesting over the years that public support for MAX, and for mass transit generally, has been generated with the "it takes automobiles off the road." The net result? Folks voted for that kind of funding to get "those other drivers out of my way." When everybody thinks this, you get an underutilized mass transit system and gridlock, because nobody gets out of their car. That's because it was supposed to be "the other guy."

IIRC, transportation research has shown that if you build a freeway, it will soon reach gridlock. If you widen it to accomodate the growth in use, it will soon result in gridlock. If you need to commute in your car from east Portland to downtown, stay the hell off of I-84. I think you'll find that using the major east-west arterials will accomodate faster transport, even with all the traffic control measures. That's because the freeways are in gridlock.

Dedicated bus lanes on major artierials, along with adequate enforcement, would go a long way towards convincing drivers to switch to mass transit.

Still, mass transit cannot offer a private space unsullied by any of the "unwashed". This is a major problem for many. For many, the irritation of being stuck in gridlock is far better than having an aromatic denizen of Portland's streets take the seat next to you.

So, I'd have to agree with the other poster who intimated that mass transit will not truly be successful until the powers that be stop subsidizing the automobile through expansion of existing road systems (particularly inner city freeways that should _never_ have happened) and of parking in destination locations.

Larry:
"2 minutes it takes me to park" - an unrealistic time frame for most people, especially downtown in parking structures

"10 minutes it takes me to walk to my office from the nearest max stop"
put that in your exercise/wellness time budget (and it's faster in the rain)

Lars will agree with the President on absolutely anything, but by golly, if you say you think so much as one sniff of the President's proposals for immigration sound ok, Lars will push little old ladies under the Light Rail in order to get at your throat.

"The Washington County Commuter rail is even worse. With 14 miles from no where, to no where"

Must be nice to live in a bubble there Steve. Beaverton and Wilsonville are two of the largest employment centers in the Portland Metro Area and are going to keep on growing.

Have you ever driven on I-5 or 217 during rush hour? Although that commute is awful in a car, it is even worse on a bus because it take twice as long with multiple transfers.

""""mass transit will not truly be successful until the powers that be stop subsidizing the automobile through expansion of existing road systems"""""""""

Why is this nonsense so common? Gas taxes pay for road improvements and expansions. AKA "user fees".
Gas Taxes from road users, which are frequently taken and used for transit and floating sidewalks.

You must have not noticed the lack of road and freeway expansion in this region as well as the disproportionate spending on rail which is used by a less than 1% of commuters.

The claim that "if you build a freeway, it will soon reach gridlock" has been long ago thoroughly debunked and is as foolish as if I said if we build a new school to help over crowded schools it will just fill up so let's not build it.

There is NOT a single benefit from our rail system. None. Not cleaner air, not congestion relief, not increased transit use, not spurred development.

The Washington County commuter rail is worse
despite the impression some may have.
This is a peak hour only commuter rail line. Hence, the census
journey-to-work data tells us what we need to know about origins and
destinations from Wilsonville to Beaverton. The census show almost no trips
along that route. The route passes on the other side of 217 from Washington
Square, a mega-mall. But the line doesn't operate when the line stops
operations in the AM. If people have to drive to get there, they won't use
it in the PM for the return trip.
In Portland, this line has been described as the line between Incredible
Universe and the Round. Incredible Universe was a failed appliance
mega-store in Wilsonville. The Round is a failed transit oriented
development in Beaverton. The Round's original developers went bankrupt.
Those trying to make something of the millions poured into the area have
totally changed the project from a mixed-use residential development having no parking on the line to a business development with more parking than a mega-mall.
The predicted ridership has NO basis in fact. Because there is not even a demand for a bus doing the same.

The idea that fixed rail can service our region is ridiculous as demonstrated by the low percentage of people who can effectively access our current lines.
Track record folks. We know exactly what more will do.
It's as asinine as if we had costly Limousine buses running only on one street without any means to enter from or leave to any adjacent neighborhoods or communities. Only light rail costs more.

Adding a line to Clackamas will provide not a single nano transit or transportation benefit.
The downtown light rail mall promises to be a farce beyond our imaginations. A massive boondoggle making the Tram look wise by comparison.
The Mt. Hood Freeway would not have been more expensive and would not have been any more of a Boondoggle than I-205 and the Glenn Jackson Bridge. Now congested because of decades of road transportation neglect by those enamored and delusional over rail.

While a car may beat MAX during off-peak hours, all I know is MAX fucking KILLS highway 26 during rush hour. I take it the OPPOSITE DIRECTION (I live in NE, work in the suburbs) and the MAX still gets me home faster than when I drive (and that's even though I have to ride MAX all the way through downtown, which takes half my transit time).

If I was going in the DIRECTION of the bulk of traffic, I bet MAX would get me home in half the time or better. I see those cars on 26 and they're often barely even moving. There's no way they ever come close 14.5 miles an hour.

I can't speak to I84 because I never go out to Gresham.

Hey Allan -

While I agree that the 10 minute walk would be shortened when raining, I hope you didn't miss my point. Which was that you wanted to add the time to park the car to the auto commute but didn't say a thing about adding ancilliary time requirements to the max commute. If you're gonna do it for one, ya gotta do it for the other.

And while we're on that topic, let's go ahead and add in the time it takes to find a parking spot in a Park and Ride onto the max commute as well. Ever have to park OUT of a PnR lot, a couple blocks away because the lot is full? I have...

And let's add these monetary considerations onto the max commute - I've had my stereo stolen twice (broken window one time and broken door lock the next) and another time my entire "dream" truck was stolen from a max lot. This whole max commuting thang is gettin' expensive...

As far as my exercise/wellness time budgets go, I'd rather spend the time hiking or paddling (exercise) or swilling beer at Sassys (wellness)... Funny how those two work against each other.

I'd ride asked,
""""Have you ever driven on I-5 or 217 during rush hour? """""""

Every day for years. That's why I'm for real congestion relief.
Commuter rail will not effect congestion at all.
In fact if you ask TriMet they will provide you with nothing but the repeated claim based upon a self serving presumption that it will.

They and Metro know themselves it will not help congestion. They are lying to get it built, just as with the Tram, so they can expand massive public subsidies for high density private development along the line. Development like the Beaverton Round.

We need more road and freeway capacity to divert traffic from clogged neighborhood arterials and relieve overburdened highways. More cars will not magically appear to fill everything up. That is another lie.

Larry writes:
"Hey Allan -

While I agree that the 10 minute walk would be shortened when raining..."

Well, if the 10 minute walk goes in the "wellness budget", then the 25 mins spent flirting with the MAX cuties (you know, all those hot girls who love to ride the MAX) goes in the "dating budget". A few more "budgets" and I can get everywhere on a MAX train in no time at all!!!!! I love the logic!!!! Just find a new budget!!!! Maybe it works for money also?!!!! LOL

Schopp's voice and take on this issue/thread is the sanest and most cogent, spot-on observation and analysis than any of the other participants. Somehow....somewhere...there has to be enough of us who can really make a fight out of this, and stop the effing insanity. Trams [rimshot] transit malls, Wilsonville/Beaverton boondoggles, 205 light rail, fareless streetcars, bike lanes.....none has eased the congestion...it only gets worse, as well as bumpier, as the infrastructure is allowed to deteriorate further.

Not a real leader anywhere....cities...metro....salem.

Waht a pathetic, sorry, criminally negligent expensive mess.

Liars says nothing to believe. His actions prove he IS Bush. He should have respected one piddly insignificant funeral for a Liars/Bush victim -- Salem's Matthews would have been nice, who Lynde was ordered to be the 'cut out' for, condemning her a second time, and doubling his heroism -- when Liars/Bush had a chance. Now it's too late for them, of course, now that kismet has come full circle around to find Liars/Boy IS the scene of the war crimes. Liars propaganda killed our brave citizens of Oregon.

Liars/O'Reilly/Lamebrain/Rumsfeld/Cheney/Bush whatever you want to name the inhuman monster, killed the dead. Because they acted toward it. And if they had not acted, (did not defraud voters, was not on the radio), no deadly invasion of Iraq. (If Gore's votes had been counted, 9/11 would not have happened -- that's what it means to see Liars/.../Bush did it.)

If he had gone to a funeral before people came around to see Liars started the war, it likely was safe. Now it's too late. People are grief stricken, and the Liars/Boys with their swastika words are voodoo magnets. Bad juju. What he put around has come around him.

The monster's gonna run to the law for rescue and there will be no law. Which lawlessness, if law means tyranny's austerity, is what Jack's post is about -- where's the discipline and restraint on the Liars/Bush since all is gone wrong.
Johnny Too Bad -- Lyrics and Music: Winston Bailey, Hy Beckford

Walking down the road with a pistol in your waist
Johnny you're too bad
Walking down the road with a ratchet in your waist
Johnny you're too bad
You're just robbing and stabbing and looting and shooting
Now you're too bad
You're just robbing and stabbing and looting and shooting
Now you're too bad
One of these days when you hear a voice say come
Where you gonna run to
One of these days when you hear a voice say come
Where you gonna run to
You gonna run to the rock for rescue
There will be no rock
You gonna run to the rock for rescue
There will be no rock

How did it all talk public transportation after Jack's post charges Liars/Boy budget is war crimes indictment for starving scholars, starving homeless, starving aged and infirm, in the name of Jesus Christ amen? Just like Adolph.
DETENTION CAMPS IN THE USA?, Peter Dale Scott writes on Pacific News Service

A Halliburton subsidiary has just received a $385 million contract from the Department of Homeland Security to provide "temporary detention and processing capabilities.
The contract -- announced Jan. 24 by the engineering and construction firm KBR -- calls for preparing for "an emergency influx of immigrants, or to support the rapid development of new programs" in the event of other emergencies, such as "a natural disaster." The release offered no details about where Halliburton was to build these facilities, or when.

Steve S sez: "The claim that "if you build a freeway, it will soon reach gridlock" has been long ago thoroughly debunked and is as foolish as if I said if we build a new school to help over crowded schoo